Inheritance Laws - rights of siblings ?

[Hagar]

There has been a lot of discussion  on the "Why we are NOT buying in France" thread where the rights of siblings were mentioned a number of times. For example

 

Phil the Francophile wrote:

Don't forget too that this is not just about children. There is a pecking order in French inheritance, and someone somewhere will be given the power to decide your future. Parents, siblings, neices and nephews, uncles and aunts, cousins, and so the net spreads wider. If all else fails, the state takes over for your own good. Nice!

 

Espresso wrote:

In our case, there are no kids, but a notaire assured us that where there are no kids and parents, the authorities will look for the nearest blood relative (in this case, a sister on one side and a brother on the other... followed by their kids etc), in order to force seccession.

 

Both the above posters had taken professional advice on this and this view is endorsed by a number of other website sources – such as

 

http://www.frenchpropertyservice.com/frenchpropertyOwnershipandinheritancelawFAQ.html

 

However it has always been my understanding that on first death where there are no direct descendants (children/grandchildren) or ascendants (parents) then the surviving spouse will inherit the entire estate.

 

He/she is the sole heir taking precedence over grandparents, brothers and sisters or more distant relatives.

 

Both the following sources state this quite clearly

 

http://www.notaires.fr/notaires/notaires.nsf/V_TC_PUB/SMSD-5WFEXZ

 

http://www.onb-france.com/familia/index.php3?langue=en&id_gmenu=3505&code_menu=liberalite&id_art=15112

 

Am I wrong or is it just the case that some professionals are a little out of date with the changes to French succession laws ?

 

Rgds

 

Hagar

 

p.s - Apologies for the weird formatting

[Espresso]

In my case, we're not married, so there are no spouse's rights. I had also read the stuff you've linked to, by the way. I didn't like this:

"If the deceased has neither children nor grandchildren nor living parents, the surviving spouse inherits the entire estate, except for any assets that the deceased may have received as a gift or inheritance from his or her parents. Half of these assets will revert to the deceased spouse's brothers and sisters or their children or grandchildren. In this situation (i.e. when there are no living descendants or ascendants), the deceased does not have the option of eliminating the rights of the surviving spouse in their entirety, since French law reserves at least one quarter of the estate to the survivor. We should also note that, without exception, the surviving spouse is entitled to free use of the home that serves as his or her primary residence and the furniture it contains for a period of one year after the death of his or her spouse."

This, and the hefty death duties are (for me) unworkable, compared to what I could put in place in the UK.

I have since read something, and lost it, that implied that (in some cases) they stop looking down the family line after descendants and ascendants (ie, no siblings, their children, their children's children, and Uncle Tom Cobbley and anyone who happens to be passing by at the time!). ;-)

[Hagar]

[quote user="Espresso"] I didn't like this: "If the deceased has neither children nor grandchildren nor living parents, the surviving spouse inherits the entire estate, except for any assets that the deceased may have received as a gift or inheritance from his or her parents."[/quote]

I read that also but take the view that this would be very much an exception unless you were living in the family home that one or other of you inherited from parents. Even then it would only be a small proportion of the asset given that it would have initially been divided amongst siblings on the death of the parents

Others have commented that it is very different for unmarried couples.

 rgds

hagar

[Espresso]

It's difficult to know how closely one's assets - inherited from one's parents - might be scrutinized. A chunk of both our assets is (or will be) inherited money.

[Sarah]

Is it possible for children to 'buy' the property from the parents before they die?

[Hagar]

[quote user="Espresso"]It's difficult to know how closely one's assets - inherited from one's parents - might be scrutinized. A chunk of both our assets is (or will be) inherited money.[/quote]

Agree its difficult to know for certain. However if the assets/money were inherited from parents under English law then they are yours and your siblings have no abiding claim on those assets. Therefore  I don't see how French inheritance law can be applied to those assets.

Even under French law it must be diificult to apply this exception to cash money. What happens if you have spent it?

rgds

Hagar 

[Hagar]

[quote user="Espresso"]It's difficult to know how closely one's assets - inherited from one's parents - might be scrutinized. A chunk of both our assets is (or will be) inherited money.[/quote]

Just another thought on this - How would the notaire dealing with your estate know what if any assets you had inherited from parents overseas?. Our notaire certainly has no idea if we have any such assets (as it happens we don't other than a few personal items).

If the notaire is not aware of any family assets in your estate why would they search out any siblings?

Indeed I don't know how the notaire would even find our siblings - they are scattered around the globe somewhat.

rgds

Hagar

 

[Espresso]

Fair points. But these issues rapidly get to the size where they won't fit in my brain anymore. Sorry - feeble I know. I'm a little worn out with French red-tape matters at the moment. :-(

[Will]

I know exactly how you feel. Trouble is, articles on web sites, in magazines, etc can only give the most general outlines or deal with just one or two specific examples which means they can often be misleading or contradictory if your circumstances don't match the example. There are so many variables, and the articles often try to deal with both succession law and inheritance tax issues, which although closely-bound - inseparable even - are actually two quite different subjects. All sorts of things seem to play a part in the final equation - where your assets are, how you acquired them, what is their value, how many children/surviving parents/ siblings etc there are, under what regime you are (or are not) married, where you, and your heirs, are tax domiciled or resident (two different things). These are just some of the factors that determine who will inherit and what your heirs will be liable for in terms of taxes etc. In the case of more distant relatives then it is true that they will probably not automatically inherit as the authorities may not be aware of their existence. However, they will probably be aware of your demise, and if they were to come out of the woodwork to claim a share of the estate then their claims would have to be taken into account.

The only certainty is that the French state and the lawyers will benefit.

[Hagar]

[quote user="Will "]

There are so many variables, and the articles often try to deal with both succession law and inheritance tax issues, which although closely-bound - inseparable even - are actually two quite different subjects. [/quote]

I quite agree Will. Many of the articles I have read tend to skimp a bit on who actually has rights to your estate but delve very deeply into how much tax they will pay on inheriting those assets. Often they  list all the possible combinations of heirs  which I think can give a misleading impression that the world and his wive have some rights to your estate.

rgds

Hagar

p.s - I sometimes think that many people in the UK (as evidenced by the numerous articles in the Financial Press) have an unhealthy obsession with inheritance tax and avoidance thereof. 

[Espresso]

Hagar: "I sometimes think that many people in the UK (as evidenced by the numerous articles in the Financial Press) have an unhealthy obsession with inheritance tax and avoidance thereof."

In my case, it's because my (unmarried) partner would most likely suffer financial difficulties, alone in France, after my death (or vice versa). In the UK, the tax burden would be lower (depending on the rate and threshold when either of us pops our clogs), and we can engineer "spouse's rights" with a Civil Partnership. I wouldn't want anyone to think I was just squirming because I don't like parting with money.

(Even though I don't! ;-) )

[Hagar]

Hi Espresso,

I hope you don't think that comment was directed at you, or indeed any other individual. It was more reinforcing Will's point that a lot of articles which purport to deal with succession are really all about death duties and inheritance tax. There are also a huge number of articles in the UK press all about inheritance tax. The ones that get up my nose are these 'case studies' on wealthy individuals where the newspaper always asks "what would change about the current tax system?" - 9 times out 10 they answer " abolish inheritance tax! - why should the state get all my hard earned money?".

Incidentally - there is more modernisation of the french succession laws on the way. On 14th June the french Parliament adopted some changes that will make it much easier for couples in second marriages to ensure the surviving spouse gets lifetime rights to the estate.

They also have removed the rights of ascendants (parents) to the estate.

There are also significant changes to PACS - again giving more rights to the surviving partner. Is PACS something you looked at ?

rgds

Hagar

Thanks to Pomhorn on TF who put me on to this news.

 

 

 

 

[Espresso]

Hi Hagar

Yes - a PACS would improve my situation marginally. I've read what Pomhorn has said and it sounds like succession could become easier (the idea of being able to 'give' the property to the surviving partner).

I'll have to wait and see what they do about the tax - or, at least, the PACS partner's rights in inheritance. If they could close the gap between married and PACS-joined... things could become more interesting.

I guess we wait and see.

Best

Espresso

[Miki]

I can't give the whole link as it is pretty long but if you go to

http://www.linternaute.com/argent/patrimoine/tendances/0606-reforme-succession.shtml

You will find out about the new laws concerning the rights of succession due to be implemented at the start of next year.

They do often have it in English on their site somewhere http://www.linternaute.com but can't find it now.

There will be much publicity in all the papers and internet sites over

the next few months, laws that are around 200 years old being changed,

will be news !!