finding an English/French solicitor for a house purchase

[virginia.c]

Wonder if anyone knows a law firm who can help me purchase a French property?  I've left it rather late to decide I need a solicitor who is English but who works on French property purchases so is completely bi-lingual and au fait with both legal systems.  I'm at the point of having received the signed compromis and various papers re termites and energy efficiency scores.  I have basic but not legal or technical French so need to appoint someone literally tomorrow.  I have seen a firm advertised in a Sunday times publication called the Internation Law Partnership (formerly Europelaw)  main partner seems to be John Howell.  Does anyone have any experience of this firm or have any other recommendations?  Like most of us I don't have an unlimited budget but do need to appoint someone who knows their stuff!

Look forward to hearing back from anyone out there who thinks they can help!

[AnOther]

I don't know where you are but Pretty's in Ipswich have a French lady partner who has handled some issues for us.

[mint]

look up foxhayes.co.uk.  we had friends who used them and were thrilled.  i am only sorry i DIDN'T use them because the one we did use was completely incompetent and cost us a lot of money

the person you want is called graham, very knowledgeable and easy to talk to.  seemed very on the ball and he will be able to guide you through everything

sorry i no longer have his personal extension but, if you ring the firm, you can ask for him.  it won't cost you anything to speak to him on the phone to verify for yourself whether he is the sort of person you want to help you

most of these sort of solicitors including john howell were asking in the region of approximately £1500 last year (no vat applicable)

hope that helps.  graham, i believe, is licensed to practise in both the uk and in france

good luck

[virginia.c]

thank you Ernie, I'll look them up.  Don't suppose you know any English qualified Building/Structural Surveyors living in the Dordogne?

[virginia.c]

Thank you, I'll look them up and give them a call in the morning. Very useful to know what Howell was charging.  £1,500 sounds pretty excessive just to buy.  Don't suppose you know any English qualified Building/Structural surveyors living in the Dordogne?  I'd like someone qualified to at least look at this property for me.  Can't believe I'm planning to buy my main home without any kind of survey!  I know I won't get the full works but I'd like a qualified opinion.

[Quillan]

You should have a look through this section about Notaires because the majority of people buying do not use a solicitor it's just a further cost on top of the Notaires fee which you will have to pay anyway and that fee is a percentage of the property price. The certificates you say you are recieving should be sent to your notaire and he will present them to you on completion because he has to check their validity.

An English qualified Building/Structural surveyor is not recognised in France. Somewhere, you will have to use the search facility, there is a link in a post to the registery of the French equivilent and many of them speak English.

[virginia.c]

Thanks very much for this.  I know that the Notaire acts on my behalf, however, as a basic French speaker faced with pages of detailed French legalese I feel more comfortable having my own legal advice in addition to that provided by the Notaire.  Thank you for letting me know that the notaire  will present the certificates to me on completion, that is interesting.  The termite one seems clear, however the energy efficency one needs to be explained and  translated for me so that I can make a judgement as to whether the property meets my requirements or not.   It has electric radiators only and although the seller and the agent assure me they are both adequate and energy efficient I need to understand that report. Any issues here need to be established very early on, ie now. 

I know that building/structural surveyors are not recognised in France.  I was hoping to find someone qualified in both who has moved to the Dordogne who (for a fee of course) could look over the property for me.  If I can't find someone in France (which would make things easier) then I will find someone in England and ask them to come out.

I will look at the Notaires section as you suggest, I'm sure there are a million and one other things to find out!

 

Thanks again

[Quillan]

Most notaires will supply you with a contract in English and given the particular area in which you are buying I don't think that it will be a problem. Another forum member some time back, I forget who, did say that they (notaires) are obliged to ensure you fully understand the contract before you sign it. We had all our documents in both French and English when we bought 5 years ago at no extra cost.

Having met a few English 'surveyors' round my area over the last 5 years I wouldn't trust them at all although I am not taring all surveyors with the same brush, just the ones I know of). Their trainig does not take in to account French plumbing, electricity systems, building regulations all of which are quite different. Newer houses in our area have to be able to withstand earthquacks of a set strength for a specific time to allow people to escape so they are built quite differently to UK houses. Even modern houses round here don't have damp courses, its all so different I am afraid and may surveyors, whilst experts and very good in the UK, just wouldn't know what they are looking at. Also because English surveyors have no legal standing in France if they told you the house was falling down and advised you not to buy it you wouldn't get your deposit back because their report would not be recognised (even if it was 110% correct)

Try a search in the forum on surveyors and you should find the information on French surveyors, its been within the last year.

[virginia.c]

I h"ear what you say regarding surveyors.  I was married to one in a previous life and they are a breed apart.  If any English ones who are resident in France do get in touch with me I will at least know how to check them out before asking for their advice.  Of course the building regs in France are different, however, I am no building expert and would be unable to spot potential hazards in the same way as a qualified person.  For example, I showed the pictures to a friend of mine who was able to point out that some damp in a back wall could be cured by the inexpensive digging of a "french drain".  He also asked where the water drained into from a particular shower and basin as it was nowhere near the fosse.  I have known him a long time and trust his opinion but he is a general practice surveyor and has no structural/building qualifiations as such. All I am trying to avoid is buying a house which is about to fall down because I am at the point of being in the cooling off period.

Interesting about the earthquakes!  I guess most of the modern French bungalows are at far less risk of falling over in such an event given their lack of height!

When you refer to the contract which will be supplied in English and French, at what point did you get your contract?  Certainly the compromis and attached documents I have received are entirely in French 

[Quillan]

[quote user="virginia.c"]

Interesting about the earthquakes!  I guess most of the modern French bungalows are at far less risk of falling over in such an event given their lack of height!

When you refer to the contract which will be supplied in English and French, at what point did you get your contract?  Certainly the compromis and attached documents I have received are entirely in French 

[/quote]

Modern houses have reinforced ring beams and frames round the doors and windows to stop the from jamming when theres an eartquack hence they can be opened for an emergency escape. It doesn't really stop the house from falling down but makes it say up longer for peopl to get out. Tes we do get them, we had one 5 years ago just after we moved in.

You should have asked for a copy of the documents you already have translated in to English before you signed them. You should ask for all documents to be copied and sent in English. They won't be the one you sign of course just translations.

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

In many cases the contracts and suchlike are pretty standard, although you may have a more complicated situation than usual.

If all you need is to be able to read the paperwork in English you could consider getting a translator involved -- much cheaper than a lawyer, and I'm related to some of each. In France there are 'sworn translators' (traducteur assermenté) who are qualified to translate legal documents.

Have a look here to find out more

 http://www.traducteur-assermente.fr/

Otherwise I think you would be better off finding an English-speaking notaire to look after you. They split the fees with the seller's notaire so it would be cheaper than a UK solicitor and a notaire has a legal standing that a UK lawyer would not have.

[AnOther]

We had an English speaking Notaire for our Compromis and after going through it initially with the estate agent (English), we then all trooped over to the Notaires office, thats us, the estate agent and the vendor (no English), where we worked through each and every paragraph in both French and English so at the end nobody was in any doubt as to the terms.

Ours was probably about as simple a transaction as they come but nevertheless it was a very useful exercise because there were on or two points which needed clarifying.

[united]

We used John Howell & Co after contacting most of the people who advertised in Living France. They gave the most professional initial response. We paid £1500, we could of course have bought without them and it may have been OK, I guess over 90% of purchases will go through without a hitch the same as the UK.

 My rationale, to use them, was that I was spending what was to me a lot of pretty hard earned money so I wanted to have someone who was acting on my behalf ( unlike a notaire who is not required to give advice, some may). It is an extra layer of cost but if we had experienced some of the problems I have read about with other purchases I would have willingly spent double that to extracate myself.

I would not have bought any other asset at the cost of the house without fully understanding what I was doing eg if I was buying an equity I would want all rearch and advice in English.

Howells were OK during the purchase with everything put in writing, they also had a long conversations with the immobilier and notaire. They also gave advice on the form of ownership we eventually used.

On the downside I thought they were passive and I chased them on an number of issues.

Whoever you use do not accept everything they say remain sceptical and challenge so you are 100% clear on every point.

[virginia.c]

you make absolutely the point which is uppermost in my mind.  I simply won't risk an asset at this cost without adequate representation.  I know it will cost me more.   I'd rather it didn't, but sadly that's the way it goes.  Howells and a firm called fox Hayes in Leeds have been recommended to me - they charge the same.  Thanks for pointing out that they were sometimes "passive"  I will make the point to whichever I go with that I need action!

Now I've (hopefully) sorted the solicitor bit - and thanks to everyone who has replied.  All I've got to worry about is that I haven't so far been able to get a survey organised!

[united]

Virginia,

I also had a survey done there are 4 adverts in the Jan edition of Living France for surveyors. I paid £750 for mine, pm me if you want the name and any comments on the person. I think he covered your area.

As the French buying process does not recognise surveys, unless you have a clause suspenpensive included,  you will need the results in the cooling off period so you could back out if anything adverse turns up.

We are having lots done to our house and with hindsight I would have used my (local) architect to do the survey. There are similar issues in finding one and if you do not intend using an architect it would be difficult. There could also be language issues.

I hope all goes well.

[mint]

united

i so agree with what you have said in your 2 posts.  our purchase wasn't straightforward and we decided to pay for our legal advice.

as you have said, i had to check absolutely EVERYTHING myself, notwithstanding the solicitor.  in fact, some of the advice, though factually correct, was not the right advice for our particular circumstances

if i were to buy again and knowing now what i didn't know then, i'd do it all myself.  but, we still have no regrets about using a solicitor because our knowledge at that stage was not what it is now

i have one reservation about using a translator instead of a solicitor.  sure, a translator can give you the LITERAL meaning of documents but that's not to say they have the legal knowledge to advise you on the IMPLICATIONS of those documents.  for example, i understand english well and can read any documents produced in english, but that doesn't mean i'd understand the full meaning of the actual words on the paper.  legal language is dense language and capable of different meanings and interpretations so much so that sometimes even the legal bods argue about the exact meaning of words.  so what hope a "lay" person like myself?

fortunately, we didn't need a surveyor as my husband is a chartered building surveyor and town planner so we drove around our area and established for ourselves that, for example, if sewage works were to be built, they would not be near our house as we are at the top end of a valley rather than the bottom and so on

the way i look at it is this, a house purchase is likely to be the most expensive investment you'd ever make, so why baulk at the extra couple of thousand pounds for these services?  in any event, should it all go pear shaped, you'd at least have someone to sue!

by the way, virginia, it's not exactly true to say that the notaire acts on your behalf.  he (rarely she) is an impartial party to the transaction.  what he does do is make sure that the transaction is legal, that all the necessary conditions are in place for the transaction to go ahead.  he is not on anybody's "side" as it were.  he collects the necessary taxes for the state and ensures that the conditions for the transfer of the property are in place

[Bugsy]

The greatest piece of advice I was given when making our purchase was to draw up and mutually sign a detailed inventory of exactly what is included in the sale.

You can get quite a good one from

www.houseweb.co.uk

 

[virginia.c]

Graham has now left but there's a female partner who is back in the office Thursday.  Their fees are now between £1500 and £2500 phew!  I hope to get her to go for the lower figure as I'm hardly buying the Versailles Palace.

Thanks for the tip.  Much appreciated.

[AnOther]

It's probably getting a bit 11th hour now but these people will handle the whole deal from start to finish for about £2k +vat I think.

http://www.vefuk.com/

Included in this is assistance with connecting/transferring utilities etc. etc.

[Quillan]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

Included in this is assistance with connecting/transferring utilities etc. etc.

[/quote]

The people I know well enough to talk to face to face round here have all said that the agent they used (we are talking about more than one agent) did all this for them. So I would begrudge paying for something thats done free by another party (the agent) as part of the sale. Our agent did everything water, electricity, phone, tax etc including organising an ADSL line.

[mint]

virginia

should perhaps have asked you whether you are buying from an agent. 

quillan

forgot to mention, we bought privately, unfortunately from a brit who had even less clue than we did.  also, our purchase was not straightforward.  our property forms part of another and has shared utilities!  also, the neighbour's fosse is in OUR garden

did not regret using independent advice but regretted deeply using the person we did and regretted agreeing to the so-called "translator" nominated by the seller

i still think that for an investment of this magnitude, it's worth running it past a professional and, as mentioned before, at least you'd have someone to sue if things do not work out

[Quillan]

Take your point sweet 17 but has anyone ever known of an English solicitor being sued when it has gone wrong here in France. It's hard to believe they get it right every time. I personally think you can't do it (they usually have some form of protection in their contract) but if you could the costs would be so high plus you need to find another solicitor who would actually sue them. I also wonder under which contrie law you would sue them under, that alone could take months if not years to be decided.

[united]

When we used a UK solicitor one of the attractions was that they carried substantial insurance and any claim would be measured against the standards required by English Law and regulation. I am a UK resident entering into a contract with a UK solicitor so I understood that defines the jurisdiction.

On a separate transaction I dealt with a solicitor who made a significant mistake I had no problem in finding another solicitor to act against the first one. It did not go to court and the claim and the second solicitor's fees were paid by the first solicitor's insurance. I accepted the third offer so they were keen not to test my claim in the court, I also suspect the first solicitor was concerned about their reputational risk.

Nothing is risk free but the risks can be managed it all depends on the individuals approach and concerns. 

[Quillan]

[quote user="united"]

When we used a UK solicitor one of the attractions was that they carried substantial insurance and any claim would be measured against the standards required by English Law and regulation. I am a UK resident entering into a contract with a UK solicitor so I understood that defines the jurisdiction.

SNIP

[/quote]

Can I ask are you talking about your general experiences or specifically about buying a property in France in the case you mentioned.

[united]

Quillan,

Yes the point you quoted was about our French purchase.  I had mentioned my of a UK solicitor earlier in this thread.

The other matter involving a dispute was not.