Vice cachée

[Dinks]

We bought our house a few months back. Today, we have had the pompiers here dealing with a chimney fire that (they tell us) was a direct result of the woodburner having been installed incorrectly.... the 'conduit rigid' leads from the stove into the ceiling/ 1st floor where it enters the chimney, but there it terminates - the conduit does not go the full length of the chimney, which we understand to be illegal! There are other aspects of the bodged installation that they also brought to our attention and what we would be interested to know is, is this an example of 'vice cachée' that it could be worth pursuing? The cost of reinstalling the woodburner to comply with regulations is likely to be significant. not only that, but these 'bricoleurs' need somehow to be made aware of the dangers they are playing with!

Any advice gratefully received.

[caramac]

Sorry to hear of your incident - I have experience of this and it is very frightening.

Some questions first:   When was the chimney last swept?  What make/type of woodburner? What (type/age) wood have you been burning?  What are the other examples of "bodging"?  Was there much damage and are your insurers involved?

Legality aside, this type of (non) installation is extremely common in France and it is possible that further action may/may not be worthwhile for you, depending on other factors above.

[Dinks]

Thanks for your answer. The previous owners advised that the chimney was swept in the spring. The woodburner is a basic one from Mr Brico - can't find a makeor model on it, but it is of the 'budget' variety. The wood burned is all dead, seasoned wood of various types - no newly burnt, unseasoned wood is used. The other major 'bodge' has been the downright dangerous electrics - we had to rewire the whole of the first floor as soon as we realised what we had on our hands...live wires where there shouldn't have been live wires, various earthing problems, loose wires in sockets, incorrect grade wire used, wire buried in plaster where conduit should have been used...... Bodger Bill at his best :-(

Re the damage due to the fire, we have been lucky as it was confined to the ground floor ceiling/first floor floor section where the conduit actually terminates up the chimney - we were in the room as it actually started, heard the noise and could see the orange glow above where the conduit enters the ceiling and were able to act quickly. Not enough damage to warrant advising the insurers to be honest. But it is the cost of the reinstallation by a professional which is our major concern.I gather that if we do it ourselves our insurance will probably be invalid?

[Dinks]

I of course meant 'no newly felled or unseasoned wood is used', not 'newly burnt'!!

[woolybanana]

The wiring may have been like that for a long time. Unless claims were made that it had been renewed, then it is down to you to have had it checked I suspect.

I recently looked at a house and asked whether the chimney pipe went right to the top and the owner didnt know as they had bought it like that, so again, it sounds as if it is down to you to have checked, unless, again, statements were made.

Was the owner a Brit or French? If the former, then there may be a way to have a go. Was there an agent involved?

Many of us buy too quickly and don't do the proper checks and live (thank Frith) to pay the cost.

[Dinks]

"The wiring may have been like that for a long time" - er, no, they renovated the house themselves and certainly the installation of the electricity was all their own work! ALL of the modernisation work in the house was done by them over the last 4-5 yrs. They were a British couple who were using the house as their first 'renovation' project.

[Tony F Dordogne]

Dinks, if you wish to pursue a vice cachee, be prepared for the long haul.  We are still waiting for the report of an expert for an incident which happened here in April 2005, a few weeks after we moved in.

We had taken out additional insurance - via a well known insurance agency and company - for legal matters and they are 'dealing with it' tho apart from a couple of meetings and constant pressure from us, the local agency isn't doing anything and despite pressure from the insurers on the expert, rien.

If you're going to fund the case yourself, you'll need a good French lawyer, endless patience and serious money.

Didn't the previous owners provide a certificate to show that the chimney had been swept, ours had to?  And if this is how this couple make a living, by renovating and then selling on, then people in your area should know about them.

Was the electrical system they installed done to comply with French regulations - if not, and they installed the system using the UK stsyem, they should be easier to hold to account and I'd be speaking to the previous owners threatening to take them to court etc etc? 

[Dinks]

Thanks for the reply Tony. I have done more reading on the Interweb this afternoon and the more I read, the more I am coming to the realisation that we are just going to have to let these people get away with what they have done to this house and the danger that they have put us in. We do not have the funds for a legal process. We don't need the stress of what looks like would be a long, drawn out process. It just galls me to know what they have got away with. I dread to think what they are doing to their new project.

Re the electrics, they attempted to work to the French system but no way does it comply to the 'normes'. I wish I could post a picture here, as I am sitting looking at a bunch of wiring, caked in filler, that we uncovered from between a beam and the plasterboard mess that is the ceiling. I can see two more bulges further along the beam where more wiring is no doubt covered - no conduit of course... a serious risk of wiring overheating. Appalling.

[Panda]

Hi

Isn't the whole vice cachée issue based heavily on the previous owners knowledge that there was a problem, presumably if they lived in the house they thought that what they did was correct and so did not 'hide' this issue.  No one would  knowingly put themselves at risk and this would probably be their defence annoying as it is I think you are wise to put it down to experience.

Panda

[woolybanana]

Dinks you have all my sympathy but in France it is caveat emptor I'm afraid.

I too had the odd surprise when I looked in depth at the wiring and a few other things.

Some consolation perhaps. Wiring is supposed to be included in the house survey procedure before purchase as of March (according to my surveyors).

Of course if the couple are still in France you could try a bit of argy bargey. They could be renovating and selling every three or four years and probably need to be sorted.

[Benjamin]

It might just be worthwhile to put a shot across their bows by writing to them and asking what they are prepared to do about rectifying the situation on both counts or you will be approaching the competent authority for redress.

If they ignore you they may be sitting there for the next 12 months waiting for a knock on the door but at least it won't have cost you a great deal. A cheap bluff is always worth a try.

[Dinks]

Panda, unfortunately, I think you are spot on. They were just ignorant lemons who knew no better and they have put other people's lives at risk as a result. But still, the work that they did was <b>illegal</b>, that is the bottom line and they should somehow be brought to account. However, we cannot afford to pursue the legal route so guess we are just going to have to foot the bill, get the burner installed correctly and then carry on rectifying all of the other balls up that they have made in the house. My only consolation is that it will be LOVELY by the time we are finished with it! I just hope we don't bump into them again at some point in the future, as my husband will have some choice words to say to them if we do and I wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of them!

[hoverfrog]

"the 'conduit rigid' leads from the stove into the ceiling/ 1st floor where it enters the chimney, but there it terminates - the conduit does not go the full length of the chimney, which we understand to be illegal! "

I recently asked about the regulations for installing a woodburner and was told that an "insert" had to have the chimney lined to the top, but a "poele" only had to have the required length of pipe to make it draw well, and if it didn't draw to add another section to it.

Lining the chimney to the top is no guarantee that you will not have a chimney fire though - we had one in the UK betwen the liner and the chimney walls. The company that had installed the fire replaced the liner and filled the space with something resembling pearlite - 20 large sacks of it! When they came to replace the woodburner 10 years later, they made the mistake of removing the plate at the bottom, and the living room was knee-deep in white granules. They did tell me not to look when they started swearing, but I had to and just laughed my socks off! :)

[P-D de Rouffignac]

I am afraid what you are reporting is another example of bodged DIY renovation - I always try to avoid properties 'renovated' by their owners when advising client-buyers; and second, failure to take advice or have a survey, especially in the case of a recent renovation, even when undertaken by a professional. I know this is no consolation after the event but I hope serves as a reminder to others. It is not a peculiarly French phenomenon either, as someone has implied - it can happen anywhere.

P-D de Rouffignac

[Gardengirl]

My sympathies are with you for the problems have had with the fire and those you will face, putting things right and making them safe.

If you can contact these people who threatened your safety (& pocket!), I would urge you to do so, in a similar vein to that suggested by an earlier poster; telling them what you have been through & will have to do to be secure, and that it will all cost a good sum of money, and threatening to inform the authorities.

They may or may not be aware that they are causing serious problems to others. If they do know and don't care, it might just cause them to consider. If they don't realise, they might well be horrified. Either way, you will have spoken out for the greater good - for us all, in fact.

Could you also indicate the area they have moved to on this forum, so that all of us are aware for anyone who might wish to buy in the future.

Good luck with all the work you will have to carry out.

Jo

 

 

[nomoss]

We recently sold a property and had to declare in the Acte that no work had been done on it in the previous 5 years.

I understand that if this were the case we would have had to prove that all such work was covered by insurance, either via the builders' insurance, or private insurance if we had done any work ourselves.

I believe this aspect of house purchase was discussed recently on this Forum.