Baking Bread

[Lori]

I've tried baking bread (baguettes) a couple of times in the new kitchen.  I have never really been good at bread baking.  However, the baguettes had a nice flavor and they were edible, but I don't think they were exactly as they should be.

Can any of you nice folks offer me any tips on how to perfect my baguette?  I am using this flour (as we both prefer a cereale flour). 

https://www.auchan.fr/auchan-auchan-farine-boulangere-sans-levure-pour-pain-cereales-1kg/pr-459274

Using the recipe on the bag.

500 grams flour

1.5 café spoon of salt

10 grams (2 pkts) Auchan levure

275 ml warm water

First go I followed recipe and added the dried levure to the dry flour/salt mix, then added the warm water, til pate formed, albeit sticky, but I'm told that is normal.  Covered with cling wrap and put in oven (not  heated) as kitchen is fairly cold, to rise.  Recipe says first rise is 30 minutes and dough should double in size.  First go, dough did double in size. 

Took out formed into one large baguette put back into oven (again not hot) for second rise of 40 minutes.  Took out, did not handle dough except to put it into a rectangular, non stock bread pan.  Preheated oven to 240C per recipe, then put dough into hot oven and turned temperature down to 220C per recipe.

Baked for 25 minutes (a bit longer than the 20 from recipe).  It tasted really good, but I'm not sure it was as fluffy and risen as it should have been. 

So, the second time, I used the same ingredients but mixed the yeast with about 3 tablespoons of warm water (not hot) and a sprinkle of sugar to let it dissolve before adding it to the flour/salt mix.  The yeast didn't seem to froth up as much as I am used to when doing this.  I think this may have been something I did wrong.  Water not warm enough or something.

Anyway, I added it to the flour/salt mix and added about 250 ml of warm water the bowl and mixed up the dough.  After 30 minutes, the dough did not double in size.  I let it sit another 15 to see if it might rise further...  Nope, no luck.  I took it out, formed two baguettes and placed them on my newly received double baguette tray (using parchment paper).

They baked, but did not rise like the first try.  Again, I think I must have mishandled the yeast.  The baguettes were definitely edible, but the center was more dense than the first attempt - which I already thought was not quite 'right.'

So, for those of you who have managed to read to the end of this, can you offer me any tips on how to improve the baguette baking?? 

THANK YOU !

P.S.  The same flour happens to make the most outstanding American style biscuits AND really good carrot or fruit muffins.

[idun]

I have not used dried yeast since I made my husband seriously ill with it 41 years ago, so for all I bake bread all the time with fresh yeast, this is a little more difficult for me.

In France I always used cheap and cheerful 45 white flour, and excellent bread, so  I don't believe that your flour would affect it.

I know your recipe said two packets of yeast, well, I have checked on some british web sites and for 500grs of flour they all say 7grs of dried yeast, so even a packet is too much and I agree with that. 

I do believe the problem is too much yeast.

I remember in France it would say to use a full cube of levure from the boulangerie for a kilo of flour, I used to use a third of a cube for 2 kgs and a half cube for over 3kgs.

May take longer to rise, but frankly it doesn't matter if the bread you produce is lovely.

I quite often use cold water, but it  takes longer to rise, so do that if I am leaving it for it's first rise over night.

Also, I add a good shake of virgin olive oil to my bread as I am doing the first mix, don't know why or when I even started it, just that I always do these days.

[Lori]

Thank you so much for the tips.  I understand and agree with your logic.

I will try your suggestions on my next attempt. 

I have a different levure that is in packets of 7g recommended for 500g of flour, so I will try that to see how it works.

OH also said his mother adds some olive oil to her bread recipe too.  So, I will try that.

THANK YOU !

I will let you know how it works.

[idun]

https://www.amazon.fr/s?k=moulle+a+baguette&__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=2VBJFDMZ64EQG&sprefix=moule+a+bag%2Caps%2C166&ref=nb_sb_ss_sc_1_11

Lori I use these, do you, I very lightly oil them.

I find that you don't need that much dough in each one, about 4cm diameter of dough in each long 'sausage' and then about 4cm from the end at both ends. Once it has more than doubled it hasn't gone all over if I do this and I can get my oven glove in to lift it out if it isn't right on the end.

I made a few messes when I started, so I started weighing the dough going into each baguette, so they were all the same.  I do 'learn' from my mistakes.[Www]

[Lori]

Yes, Idun, I bought this one:

https://www.amazon.fr/Kaiser-Inspiration-Baguettes-antiadh%C3%A9sif-Inoxydable/dp/B06WP2X11N/ref=sr_1_25?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=2VBJFDMZ64EQG&dchild=1&keywords=moulle+a+baguette&qid=1610894717&sprefix=moule+a+bag%2Caps%2C166&sr=8-25

I did use parchment paper as I felt my dough was a bit softer, stickier than it should be.  Plus, this was the first time I was using the new baguette pan. 

I like the pan so far.  And, I don't use near as much dough in each "sausage" as it could hold.  So, no worries about it over flowing on the second rise.

I'm going to try it again tomorrow as I'm making Poireaux/Potato soup for dinner.  I think this time I will let the dough rise longer on the first and second rise to see if that helps.  I hope it won't HURT.   I'll also be using less yeast.

[idun]

That looks fine. If my dough is really too sticky, I knead for longer, and if it remains too sticky I put a little shake of flour on the work surface and that usually does it. That is all during the first kneading.

Also I never put all the water in in one go, I think that some flour takes less liquid, is that desiccation?

I make up a lot more dough, and have two x two and one three baguette trays. I usually make up some rolls too and maybe a batard or two, as I use about 2kgs of flour. All the loaves get cut into usable pieces and frozen.

My first rise is usually at least four or five  hours as I use half the amount of yeast that recipes state. And the second rise is also longer. Just giving time for the yeast to do it's job. And I suspect it may be different with fresh yeast too, but as I said, I made my husband extremely ill with dried yeast and we cannot use it.

[Lori]

Well, today's bread is the best so far.  I did use Francine Cereales flour (instead of Auchan) and the different dried yeast pkt of 7g.  I also used 50ml less warm water than the recipe called for.  Sprinkled a little more flour into the first knead.

The only thing I did slightly wrong was bake it for only 24 minutes.  It was looking browned and I didn't want to dry it out, so took it out.  The outer crust was not as crunchy as it should be, so next time, I will leave it in for another 7 or 8 minutes.  Other than that, it was excellent..

I'm getting there.

[idun]

 Well I am so pleased. Sometimes the dough will need a little more liquid, it simply does depend, each time it can be a little different.

There are so many things about this bread making milarky, and I continue to learn.

[mint]

I don't make bread "from scratch" like you two.  I leave all that to the experts, I just use my breadmaker.

But, even using the breadmaker and following the instructions either of the manufacturer of the machine, or the bread flour, there is never any guarantee that the result will turn up identical.  I suppose that is part of the charm and excitement?

I do find a variation with the different makes of levure boulangère.  I have tried all the common ones, Francine, Super U, Vahiné, etc.  The BEST, for me, is either Champion (hard to find) or Chabrior.  No difference though with the different makes of flours.  I don't like the complet because I have never managed a nice brown loaf but I do like the multi-céréals and sometime, if I want to make sandwiches, I use blanc and occasionally for a treat I use the flour for brioche.

I haven' been to a boulanger's for bread (or fattening vienoiserie) since the pandemic.

[Lori]

Thank you so much for your tips.  They really did help me.  I just didn't know what to do or not do.  I am learning.

If I had baked today's bread about 8 minutes more, I think it would have been outstanding.

I will try that on my next attempt.

When you make rolls, do you use a roll bread making pan (like the baguette pan), or do you just shape them and leave them on an ordinary baking pan?

[idun]

I put rolls on a baking pan, sheet as I would call it.

When I make rolls I like them close enough together so that they stick together during baking, then I put them on a cooling rack.

 I have to tug them apart once cold, I don't know, why, just pleases me to do that, not keen on the look of perfect looking baked all the way round rolls.

I do the same when making 'teacakes' these are fruited round rolls with some sugar in, popular in the UK. We love these toasted. Even my brioche rolls get the same treatment.

I do have a brioche recipe from the Head Mistress of my boys ecole primaire that is OK. Certainly not a master patisserie recipe, but still, they are good and and IF I make a big round one, make a tropezienne, miam miam......... once chilled I just cannot leave it alone once ready.

[Lori]

Mint - somehow we've managed to avoid the Boulangerie for the most part.  Exception being Christmas Eve and Christmas Day when I got up at 6h45 to be at the Boulangerie by 7h00 to pick up holiday breads - before the crowd.

Now, I'm very pleased with my breads so far.  I used to have a bread machine in the U.S. and it producted 'okay' breads.  I was never really that happy with the machine or the recipes that it created.

Good to know about the rolls Idun.  I want to give them a try too.  Next though, I think I will try making a bread with muesli and some dried fruits in it. 

I love the cereale flour.  Do you think I could use it for a muesli/fruit bread or should I use another type of flour?  Also, should I add the muesli/fruit in the first rise or add it for the second rise?

Thank you !

[Gardengirl]

Some good tips on here, sorry I can’t help with muesli/fruit bread, Lori.

I used to make bread by hand until arthritis got worse and have used my mixer with the bread paddle on since then. My husband took over bread-making some time ago and is proud of his very tasty efforts.

But as already said, the results differ quite a lot, despite careful attention paid to weights and measures. Recently one mix turned out loaves very like dense rye bread. Quite tasty, but worked our jaws well.

[Lori]

Yes, isn't that odd GG.  It has happened to me in the U.S. many times.

Here, in France, I think the flour is different.  Maybe the yeast too.  I don't know, but I have better results here so far.

[idun]

Lori, I have never used seeds or museli in bread. Too old now to have seeds stuck in my teeth, and the thought of museli, well, I see people eating it and can only wonder 'why', it looks awful and I did have a taste once, and then I really wondered 'WHY'!

I used to make 'just' wholemeal bread.  Now I use wholemeal flour, but as it can be very dense, usually use half white or a third white in the mix.

Re measuring, well, I don't measure the liquid, I go by the texture, adding it  slowly and then it has be as we say in northern england, slightly claggy, so slightly sticky. As I knead, and I knead on an oiled surface, not floured for ordinary bread, it starts to feel firmer and firmer and seems to start fighting back. IF it really is too sticky then at that point I will use a little flour on the board and keep kneading until it feels just right. I gently push the pad of my finger against it and it springs back and it is ready for the first rise. 

As I said, I used to use cheap and cheerful plain white  flour in France and do here in the UK. I know that much is said about the gluten content etc, but it was rare that my bread was not of the quality I had hoped for, although in truth it was never the same twice either.

I love baking bread. You start with next to nothing and get a glorious result!

[Lori]

I hear ya about the muesli.  I don't like it; too mushy for my taste, but husband usually has it in the house.  So, I used some of what was already here.  Made 2 very large baguettes yesterday with muesli, chopped dried figs, chopped dried apricots and chopped pecans.  It has to be one of the best breads (of its type) that I have ever tasted. 

I went by this recipe (scroll down page for recipe - sorry):

https://www.theenglishkitchen.co/2018/03/muesli-bread.html

I'm not too keen on the egg wash brushed on the top.  It just browns too soon.  At least mine did.  Won't do that next time.  The first rise was way more than double in size. 

I definitely will try the cheap 45 flour.  I have plenty of it here. I want to try to make a more traditional plain baguette, so will try 45 for that.

You are so right, you start with next to nothing and - if you're lucky - you do get a glorious result.  And, as I told OH, once you have had a few good results, watch out hips and tummy, you're on a roll.  Can't stop.

[idun]

I don't like egg wash either as you say it browns far too quickly.

If I want a glaze on sweet bread as you have done, as it is nearly baked I gently boil a little milk with sugar in it and then brush the baked loaves as they come out of the oven. It leaves a shine and slightly sticky top to the bread, and we like it.

Glad your latest bread was lovely. The more you bake, the easier it is IMO.

I remember the first time I got my husband to make the bread. I heard a little cry of 'help' and he had what looked a boxing glove of dough on each hand and he couldn't get it off. Dough does seem to have a will of it's own for novices. In this case I scraped the dough from his hands and started kneading and he continued. It took a few goes before he felt like he was in charge and the dough behaved itself.

[Gardengirl]

More rolls on the stomach! I don’t eat a lot of bread but I’m still getting a few of those! ?

The loaves my husband made yesterday were made with a mixture of wholemeal flour, wholemeal spelt flour and strong white flour. They didn’t rise as well as usual but turned out OK, apart from 1 loaf sticking in the tin.

are nice and light and tasty and he’s very pleased with them. Half of one loaf is in the bread bin and the rest is sliced and in the freezer.

[Lori]

What !! )(*&$%^&*

TWO husbands who bake bread !!!!!    Where DID you find them??

My husband can't be relied on to prepare much beyond oatmeal and a fried egg...  And the quality of those could be questioned.

[idun]

I got mine kneading bread, well in 1976 or 1977. He would start the bread off before I got in from work and I would finish it later. I like it when he kneads the bread as he is simply stronger than me and kneads it more firmly.

I got my father in law making it too when he stayed with us. Now he was miner all his life, and spoke pitmatic, a local dialect from the County Durham Coalfields and very difficult to understand. I think he enjoyed the first kneading because he could use his strength on it, and he was a very strong man. Nothing namby pamby about that first knead for normal bread.

I have got a friends husband making it recently too, he had tried a few times with little success, and now bakes it regularly.

Men do bake bread, just apparently not all men.

[Lori]

Very interesting Idun. 

Do these male folks cook other things too?

I have tried teaching my OH how to prepare various foods in the kitchen.  He asked me to try to teach him.  He just never seems to get into the flow of it.  He always seems interested in learning, yet things just don't work out.  I think he overthinks things.  He is an analyst/engineer and I think he makes it hard when it isn't.

[Gardengirl]

Lori, very similar to my engineer husband, who changed horses to be a project planner later.

He likes everything to be just so and to work out, but baking and cooking aren’t like that, are they. He used to expect that everything would behave as laid down in recipes.

But he does have a few recipes he makes totally on his own, one of which he tried when I went out for lunch with girlfriends - remember those days, pre-Covid?

He made so much that our son, who used to have his office in a spare bedroom in our house until Covid arrived, stayed to lunch, and there was still some pasta left over - and our son can eat for England!

He also helps with other meals, and always does the main veg each day, which I really appreciate as prep often starts my back off aching.

Both of our sons were domesticated by the time they left home, with a small range of recipes they could cook. I’m a believer in everyone being able to cope around the home even just a bit and it’s we females who need to teach them.

[idun]

I friend of ours, a scientist asked me why recipes didn't work out, because he followed them to the letter, and I explained that it was the ART of cooking not the science and the ingredients varied.

A good explanation to a scientist or engineer is that say a cake recipe states, say 3 eggs, but NEVER ever says which size egg to use, as they vary from XL to S. So how can the amount of liquid in a recipe be 'just' if the recipe is already not giving precise instructions. Never mind the absorbancy of say flour on a given day.

My husband used to live alone at one point and cooked full meals for himself, so he can and does cook. Our current house has a kitchen for him if he wants to cook. He makes french pates and rillettes etc amongst other things. And is well equipped. He also smokes meats and fish, hot smoking so far, but wants to start cold smoking too.

I suppose that one has to be interested.

I will tell you one thing though as I have mentioned my father in law. When my MIL died, he invited us round for dinner. Now this man, never touched a thing in the kitchen, not cooking, washing up, or drying, expected it all to be done for him, including cups of tea taken to him and the cup taken away. Really that was how it was.

So we had a sneaky sandwich before going round to his home. Would you believe he had cooked a two course meal. Made soup and then dinner, chops, a few veg and potatoes with gravy. It was lovely.

After I had complemented him, asked when he had learned to cook......... 'I used to watch', he said,' so just did what she did', so he watched but NEVER EVER helped. What can one say. The good thing was that he knew how to look after himself properly.

[Lori]

So, after my recent relative success with baking breads, I thought why not try a sourdough bread.  I have always heard they are tricky with the starter needing to be just right, etc.

So, I did a bit of research.  Do any of you bake sourdough breads?

Do you go to this much trouble?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNzJLP61nnQ

I nearly lost the will to live about half way through.

[Judith-aka-Judith]

Sort of replying to a post made by Idun probably on this bread thread .. but some time ago.

I started trying out no kneed bread during the first lockdown ... sort of.  I can cook, but baking is not a strong skill, I do it when I must .. had trouble getting the amounts right, but all were edible, if not looking quite the loaf you buy in the shop.  Persevered .. using flour with grains to start with, then added more white, less yeast, etc etc .. lots of research, eventually I got a reasonably consistent bake if not ideal.  Then I read Idun's comment about olive oil, so tried that, it helped, indeed.  Then I had teeth problems so left out the grains for a while, improved.  Then I started doing a small kneed, just to smooth it all out, with a long rise .. then I experimented with a second proofing .. all but one time improvements could be seen.

Finally I returned to the half and half flour, shortish first kneed, second one sooner than I had been doing, adding oil, reducing the yeast by half (this flour seems to have some yeast added, can't get other stuff, shelves often empty), and I seem to be getting an almost reliable loaf.  I am very proud of myself!

So by trial and error I got there!  And I have eaten all my efforts, for even the worst have not been inedible.  It has even proved to be more therapeutic than I ever believed during all these difficult times and something to look back on with pride.

I believe hubby knows how to kneed bread, but he has never offered to do it for me!