First step into motorbikes

[socket]

Hello

       I seek some sound advice please,  today someone asked the question " what size motorbike or scooter can I drive in France on an English licence "  He has not passed any test in England , just has his car driving licence

       I could'nt advise him , so I'm hoping someone out there can

       Regards socket

[Sunday Driver]

This question has arisen many times, and it's been generally assumed that one could can ride 125s in France on a UK car licence. So, I've done some more research on the matter and this is what I've come up with.

EU wide driving licence regulations are harmonised, but allow individual member states to vary their driving entitlements on the condition they apply solely to their own national territory.  For example, the UK category B car licence includes a provisional category A1entitlement (light motorcycles up to 125cc) which is only valid in the UK.

In France, the code de la route Art. R221-8 states:

La catégorie B du permis de conduire, délivrée depuis au moins deux ans, autorise la conduite, sur le territoire national, des véhicules relevant de la sous-catégorie A1.

That means that anyone who has held a French category B licence for more than two years can apply to have category A1 added to their licence as an equivalence, ie without an additional test. 

Now, in terms of pan european mutual recognition, a UK category B licence is valid for France, but because it will not be endorsed with a full A1 entitlement, then I suspect it will not cover riding motorcycles in France. 

It's a bit of a complex area, and I think your friend might have to exchange his UK licence for a French one to obtain the necessary endorsement........[:(]

Any other ideas or contraditions welcome.......

 

[Bob T]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Any other ideas or contraditions welcome.......

 [/quote]

Would anyone dare to contradict your well informed wisdom? I wouldn't.

[socket]

Hello S-Driver,

                      Thanks for your reseach and advice on this subject I will have no problems passing this information on.

                      Hope to see you on the Saturday rideout, weather permitting

                       Regards socket

[brillow12]

[quote user="Bob T"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Any other ideas or contraditions welcome.......

 [/quote]

Would anyone dare to contradict your well informed wisdom? I wouldn't.

[/quote]

I shall make a point, if that is OK. 

It is not my intention to contradict the advisor who has been reading about motorbike law and is obviously trying to help.  Rather - it is to compliment his information... Just in case someone relies on it and breaks the law, in the UK or in France..  I write in continuation of the supposition that there is some sort of correlation between UK Law, European Law and French Law.  I stress such connections should not be replied upon.  I trust you will find this helpful.

In the UK one may not ride a 125cc motorcycle on a provisional A1 licence (which is often found on a normal full car licence) unless one has undertaken and passed additional training and testing.  There are two exceptions to this, the first involves one having obtained one's licence 300 years ago... or so, the second I shall come to in a moment. 

It is not unreasonable to suppose that if one is unqualified in the UK to ride a 125cc one may find themselves equally unqualified in France... 

Incidentally, to suppose a negative in this matter is quite safe as one is not likely to break any laws, i.e If you are not qualified in the UK, presume you are not in France..  To suppose a positive from this, i.e. That even though you are unqualified in theUK you may be qualified in France is most unwise.

That brings me to this:  If you have a car licence with a provisional motorbike entitlement and you have done no motorbike test YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO RIDE A 125CC BIKE IN THE UK. Actually it does after all seem I am contradicting the gentleman, sorry but it is necessary in order to impart the facts pertaining to the riding of 125cc motorcycles.

In order to comply with the Law in England and Wales (I can not speak of Scotland as I never did practice there) One must first take and pass the Cetrificate of Basic Training (CBT) which consists of theroy and practice.  Without this any peron found riding a 125cc bike, even though they have the provisional entitlement will be in breach of several Laws.  They will not be insured and they will technically be riding without a licence.  This can carry a castodial sentence, a large fine and can lead to the motorcycle being impounded.

The second exception to which I eluded is when a motorcyle rider with a provisional motorcycle licence is riding a bike of 125cc capacity and is accompanied by a DOT approved motorcycle instructor (or examiner) in constant one way radio communication with said motorcycle rider.

This post only applies itself to the ommision in the reply you received.  There are other issues about which you need to know, for example, even with a CBT the rider may not carry a pillion passenger....  I see people in France no older than 16 years carrying their pals on their little scooters.... Plainly the Law MUST be different here than in the UK.... Mustn't it??

I trust you will find this useful and do hope that you have not already fallen foul of UK or French Law.  I can recomment several very good DOT approved training schools in the UK if you would like to contact me.

Finally, I would say this:  In the UK 6 out of every 100,000 people die on the roads.  In France that number is 9 in every 100,000.  This statistic is all the more striking when one realises that France is a country several times the size of the UK with the same number of inhabitants.   It is estimated that if the British and French swapped countires that the death rate in the UK would rise to 45 in every 100,000.  (9 in every 100,000 is already the highest death rate in the civilised World)...

I am not having a go at the French, even their own Minister of Transport conceeds there is a real problem and that they need to drive more like the English (why not the Scots or Welsh? Don't ask me.... He used the word 'English' and I am just quoting him).  I love it here and I love the French bt to survive you have to be realistic about the driving standards here.  Can anyone truthfully contradict that?  (Yes I have been cut up in the UK too.... but not every 500m, every day, in the school carpark!!)... :-)

Add to this the fact that you are 9 times more likely to have an accident on a motorbike than in a car and if you do have that accident you are 25 times more likely to die from it than if it were in a car.

The moral.  DON'T RIDE A MOTORBIKE IN FRANCE IT CAN SERIOUSLY DAMAGE YOUR HEALTH!!!

For all those who think I am crazy I can tell you I ride a 650cc Kwaka bike here in France..  What the heck?   Ask yourself this... Would you like to see your 16 year old daughter coming home on the back of a motorbike.... Anywhere... but particulalr here?

Cheers

Brillow

[bmt]

[quote user="brillow12"]This can carry a castodial sentence ...[/quote]

Does that imply castigation or castration?  Just kidding.

A couple of rebuttals, if I may:

- being cut up in France can often be the result of misunderstanding expected right of way;

- Safety is largely in the hands of the rider: one can do a great deal towards the prevention of becoming a victim of others' driving, without simply not riding.  Expect the unexpected, etc.

[brillow12]

[quote user="bmt"][quote user="brillow12"]This can carry a castodial sentence ...[/quote]
Does that imply castigation or castration?  Just kidding.

A couple of rebuttals, if I may:

- being cut up in France can often be the result of misunderstanding expected right of way;

- Safety is largely in the hands of the rider: one can do a great deal towards the prevention of becoming a victim of others' driving, without simply not riding.  Expect the unexpected, etc.
[/quote]

 

Quite right.... Knowing this keeps me alive on my bike but it is not a level of knowledge I would necessarily attribute to some (Brits and French)

 

Brillow

[Bugsy]

[quote user="brillow12"]

The moral.  DON'T RIDE A MOTORBIKE IN FRANCE IT CAN SERIOUSLY DAMAGE YOUR HEALTH!!!

For all those who think I am crazy I can tell you I ride a 650cc Kwaka bike here in France.. 

[/quote]

What are you on about.

"Don't ride a bike"   "But I do"

Confusing sort of message there......................

and critisizing other roads users for their poor skills only shows a clear lack of anticipation on your part.

Read the books....................................perhaps.

 

[Sunday Driver]

An interestingly structured and unusually wide-ranging reply there in response to this straightforward thread on French licence requirements which, incidently, actually died off last February.....

It is not clear why relying on my information would risk breaking the law in the UK.  The original question concerned the law relating to riding a bike in France and my response and conclusion were directed at the French situation.

As part of my background explanation, I mentioned that a UK car licence would include provisional A1 entitlement, albeit only valid in the UK.  That was a clear statement of fact which was merely used to illustrate the variation in local licencing regulations which apply on their own territory. There was no need for me to bore the pants off everyone by dragging them through a convoluted explanation of the various conditions for exercising that entitlement in the UK because it would have been totally irrelevant, given that the topic of this thread is about riding in France....

Regarding the comment "In order to comply with the Law in England and Wales (I can not speak of Scotland as I never did practice there)"  - would that have been practicing as a solicitor or for the CBT... [;-)]

Postscript:  Since the original post, I have established that French licence holders do not have to have their licence physically updated with category A1 once they've been driving for the required period.  The entitlement is an automatic 'given' and the gendarmerie confirm this.  On that basis, an over two year old UK category B licence (which has identical validity to a French one) would qualify one to ride a 125cc in France.

 

[Bugsy]

Where has he gone ?

[brillow12]

An Odd sort of post Bugbear, I appear to have inadvertantly offended you.

Have you never given advise to other you do not follow yourself.  Only the other day for example I told my son not to smoke, even though I do. 

My point was that statistically it is more dangerous to ride a bike than drive a car and more dangerous to do either in France as opposed to the UK.  I supported this with some statistics which may be verifeid if need be.

I also mentioned a fact pertaining to the requirment of having obtained a CBT beofre riding a 125 in the UK.  I did this because if some person were to have relied on the second post, giving accurate but incomplete advise they may have broken the law.

My understanding was that the idea of this site was to he;lp each other and share information and opinions. I hade not intention of hurting your feelings.

Please accept my sincere apologies if any of this offended you.

 

Brillow

[brillow12]

Thank you Sunday driver,

It is obvious that I was mistaken.  My apologies for mentioning it.

 

Brillow

[Bugsy]

[quote user="brillow12"]

Have you never given advise to other you do not follow yourself.  Only the other day for example I told my son not to smoke, even though I do. 

Please accept my sincere apologies if any of this offended you.

[/quote]

Many, many years ago, father gave me a clip around the ear when I was a child, for smoking. Problem was, he had a cigarette in his mouth at the time.

That, to me is still confusing. [8-)]

So the answer to your question is no, I have never knowingly given advice to anyone that I would not follow myself.

Apology not necessary, this is a forum and, as you rightly say, is a place where everyone can express their views. Just don't expect everyone to agree with them.

Have a nice day

Gary.

 

[Bob T]

Come on guys, this is about motorbikes!

[Bugsy]

I got mine out yesterday Bob, put my thermal fabric suit on but the icy wind seemed to find a way through it, so I put it back in the garage.

Am I turning into a summer biker or is it just old age [:D]

ps. I'll contact you in the new year about coming down and having a flight.

 

[Cat]

This thread is being locked and moved temporarily to allow a little pruning.

Forum Admin and the Moderators would like to remind you that "By entering and posting on the forum you agree to abide by the code of conduct."

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[Cat]

Sorry about swiping the thread away.  I've trimmed it slightly, and it's back now.

Please try to avoid any further nastiness, as I'm about to tackle the ironing and need to keep a zen-like calm if I'm not to singe Mr Cat's silk boxers. [:$]

 

 

 

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Cat"]

.........................................................................................................as I'm about to tackle the ironing and need to keep a zen-like calm if I'm not to singe Mr Cat's silk boxers. [:$]

[/quote]

Thats still on thread Cat as all motorcyclists know the value of silk when it comes to wind proofing..[:)]

[Chris Head]

Nine out of one hundred thousand...seem like pretty cool odds to me, still gonna get me my Africa Twin!

[Bugsy]

Excellent choice Chris, totally reliable, but heavy if you, err, drop it.

 

[Chris Head]

It might just happen with the plans I have for it Gary but I always was a bit of a danger junky!

[Bugsy]

Looks like they are pretty waterproof....[:)]

[Chris Head]

Looks good to me! At least I'm not going into biking in an effort to a) rediscover my lost youth or b) try and look sexy in kinky squeeeeezethatflabin leathers![:D] (aimed in no particular direction) 

[Bugsy]

Essentials,

Good quality helmet (Aria, Shoei or similar)

Boots with heel, ankle and shin protection.

Armoured gloves

Back protector.

Fully armoured fabric or leather two-piece suit (fabric for off-road)

Waterproof over suit if using leathers

Ear plugs (or end up deaf like me [:)])

or, if you live on the med,

Any old Helmet

Flip-flops

Shorts & T shirt

[:-))]

 

[Sunday Driver]

Breakdown recovery card (not applicable to BMW owners).......[:P]