Poppy Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Our House is sited at the junction of narrow country road and a chemin. For 10 years the chemin has just been a walking track but it is now being widened to provide access to some new house building. Our privacy will be completely compromised so we would like to build a wall backover from where the chemin meets the road. Is it possible to start right on the boundary with the road and then build directly on the boundary line with the chemin. We have been to the Mairie but don't feel we are being given the correct info. They are obviously the ones widening the chemin and looking at Euro signs in respect of taxes from new houses. I have searched online all day for relevant rules without success, be very grateful if anyone could point me in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Yes.But the outer face of the wall must not lie beyond the boundary line of your property; I presume you know where your boundary line is. The plan cadastral is now digitalised and can be consulted either on line or at your marie. If you require something more official then a print out can be obtained from your local Centre des impôts foncier; if you do take this route then ask them the distances from salient features such as house corners to establish the position on the ground. There may be some local regulations controlling the dimensions of walls and perhaps materials; if not the Code Civil will apply with a maximum height of if I remember correctly 2.3 metres. Dont know what you have at moment, fence,hedge but whatever it would have constituted a "cloture" and would have required a Declaration Prealable. Strictly speaking the change of material constituting the cloture would not require a declaration but if it changes position, as a result of resetting out the boundary limits, then it would. I presume the maire is trying to make his/her chemin as wide as possible but I would doubt that a procedure for expropriation would be engaged; in any case this could only be done if it was in the public interest and a degree of necessity would be required. Extra width for drunk tractor drivers would not be sufficient.[:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Also remember that the Mairie has the right to take, I think it is up to meter of your land for road widening or other communal things, or so I was always led to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Like space for Rocking Horse excrement.[:-))] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy Posted February 26, 2011 Author Share Posted February 26, 2011 Many thanks for the replies. The chemin is being enlarged so that some new building plots will have access to the main road. In terms of privacy we will end up like goldfish so need to get some form of enclosure.Idun, it will be interesting if they take a metre of our land the house will then be in breach of the planning rules stated in the deeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikep Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I'm not sure about the legal position, but I understood when we bought our plot that the "right to take" applied only to land next to the country road (route communal). We have a "chemin" at the back of the property which is shown as our property up to the half-way point, confirmed by "bornes" in the path surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy Posted February 26, 2011 Author Share Posted February 26, 2011 Thanks Mikep. The problem is with the route communal, the Mairie reckon our drive is encroaching a metre onto the chemin. We have been here 12 years and the drive was installed before we moved in by a local well respected terrassement firm who also do council and highway work. I feel sure now he would have ensured he was in the limits of a borne. There is reference in the deeds to chapter and verse of a geometre so perhaps need to contact them.As well as the privacy which is a separate issue if we lose a metre we need to demolish another wall on the other side of the drive and also demolish lots of other things which have taken a lot of hard work and pennies to construct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polly Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Do get in touch with the géometre who did the bornage, he (or his successor if the firm has been taken over since) will have the detailed measured drawings, and will come out and re-mark them as nec either FOC or for not much dosh. As to the height of any new wall (or fence), so long as you're not near any listed buildings or in a protected area such as a regional parc, or in a commune with special rules on boundary walls & fences (ask at your Mairie) you can build the boundary wall as high as you like. (source: Notice Explicative de permis de construire... etc, CERFA 51190*02, copying & pasting this link should give you a pdf file to download :http://www2.equipement.gouv.fr/formulaires/docassocies/51190.pdf) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 [quote user="Mikep"]I'm not sure about the legal position, but I understood when we bought our plot that the "right to take" applied only to land next to the country road (route communal). We have a "chemin" at the back of the property which is shown as our property up to the half-way point, confirmed by "bornes" in the path surface.[/quote]The commune doesn't have a leg to stand on if the bornes are there and will have to negotiate in the usual way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polly Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Agreed, Woolyb; which is why Polly needs the géometre on site asap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Yes, agreed with that, but if the bornes are already there, how can the commune dispute the boundary? They can't just say that land has been taken from them as they themselves should know where the bornes are anyway if they are doing this road job. UNLESS they have a plan with the bornes in a different position, in which case it gets complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 Many thanks Polly for the reference re walls etc. That's this afternoons reading sorted.Unfortunately there aren't any bornes on the track side of the property but as I said I'm sure the chap who did the drive would work within the rules. It's one of those situations where we were originally the only property for miles and had to jump through hoops for every planning application. Now houses are appearing like mushrooms and every planning law appears to be being broken. I've got a feeling that any application we make for a wall or hedge will be rejected on the grounds that it restricts the view for turning onto the main road.Feeling a bit sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Hmmm, taking a leaf out of my nasty neighbours book, have you checked that the commune has stuck to the rules themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polly Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Poppy I have pm'd you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote user="Polly"]Do get in touch with the géometre who did the bornage, he (or his successor if the firm has been taken over since) will have the detailed measured drawings, and will come out and re-mark them as nec either FOC or for not much dosh. As to the height of any new wall (or fence), so long as you're not near any listed buildings or in a protected area such as a regional parc, or in a commune with special rules on boundary walls & fences (ask at your Mairie) you can build the boundary wall as high as you like. (source: Notice Explicative de permis de construire... etc, CERFA 51190*02, copying & pasting this link should give you a pdf file to download :http://www2.equipement.gouv.fr/formulaires/docassocies/51190.pdf)[/quote]Polly since departure of Borloo that site seems to have been pulled; a month ago I started the preparation of a border dispute and found to my astonishment that the possibility of filling in a PDF file on line, printing and signing no longer exists.Catching up on thread, the details of any bornage done by a geomètre experte is vital. The reason being that if a property is purchased it will normally be done purely on the basis of the Parcelle Identification. The intervention of a geomètre would probably only have occured if there had been a division of land or a buyer wishing to reestablish the boundaries of the property. The fact that there has been apparently a bornage suggests that there is a story behind the facts.A small point, but bornes are not set in stone as they are fairly fragile and can be easily moved BUT there nominal existence is testimony to the fact that a bornage has been done and that the true positions can be reestablished. Bornes are marked on a plan cadastral with a little round circle; they are as rare in rural france as excrement from rocking horses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 Will contact the geometre tomorrow but just had a thought- if the bornes are in the middle of the chemin does that mean the owner is responsible for the maintenance of the chemin ?Pachapapa, no story behind the facts. The land was divided by the previous owner when we bought the property. There are bornes on the other side of the land but none along the chemin and no circles on the plan cadastral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote user="Poppy"]Many thanks Polly for the reference re walls etc. That's this afternoons reading sorted.Unfortunately there aren't any bornes on the track side of the property but as I said I'm sure the chap who did the drive would work within the rules. It's one of those situations where we were originally the only property for miles and had to jump through hoops for every planning application. Now houses are appearing like mushrooms and every planning law appears to be being broken. I've got a feeling that any application we make for a wall or hedge will be rejected on the grounds that it restricts the view for turning onto the main road.Feeling a bit sad.[/quote]The right to enclose your property is a fundamental right included in the Civil Code since Napoleonic times.If a "lotissement" has been established then the "Cahier de charges et réglements du lotissement" will contain planning rules applicable to the properties within the estate. There is a minimum number of houses to constitute a lotiisement. How many houses planned up your lane?IMO many brits jump through hoops due to a myopic, masochistic delight in seeking to comply with regulations; unlike their french cousins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote user="Poppy"]Will contact the geometre tomorrow but just had a thought- if the bornes are in the middle of the chemin does that mean the owner is responsible for the maintenance of the chemin ?Pachapapa, no story behind the facts. The land was divided by the previous owner when we bought the property. There are bornes on the other side of the land but none along the chemin and no circles on the plan cadastral.[/quote]A borne is no more than a point of location, a surveyor will often establish temporary bornes to guide construction very occasionally they will be placed on the crown of the road in steel pipe with protective caps on them. A borne placed by a geometre will have a round plastic bit sticking up with the name of the firm and sometimes an exhortation not to damage the borne.France is devoid of survey points, by the time the germans made it a capital offence, not many had survived the attentions of the resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote user="woolybanana"]Hmmm, taking a leaf out of my nasty neighbours book, have you checked that the commune has stuck to the rules themselves?[/quote]Many thanks nasty neighbour, think I need to take a leaf out of your banana notebook and pop down to the DDE with some photos xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote user="pachapapa"][quote user="Poppy"]Many thanks Polly for the reference re walls etc. That's this afternoons reading sorted.Unfortunately there aren't any bornes on the track side of the property but as I said I'm sure the chap who did the drive would work within the rules. It's one of those situations where we were originally the only property for miles and had to jump through hoops for every planning application. Now houses are appearing like mushrooms and every planning law appears to be being broken. I've got a feeling that any application we make for a wall or hedge will be rejected on the grounds that it restricts the view for turning onto the main road.Feeling a bit sad.[/quote]The right to enclose your property is a fundamental right included in the Civil Code since Napoleonic times.If a "lotissement" has been established then the "Cahier de charges et réglements du lotissement" will contain planning rules applicable to the properties within the estate. There is a minimum number of houses to constitute a lotiisement. How many houses planned up your lane?IMO many brits jump through hoops due to a myopic, masochistic delight in seeking to comply with regulations; unlike their french cousins.[/quote]I really hope enclosure is a fundamental right but I need to find chapter and verse.The Mairie assured us a couple of years ago that no lotissement would be allowed ho ho. Walking along the chemin this morning it dawncd on us that if the chemin was made suitable for vehicles the plot next door could be split into about 8 plots. It has been sale for years as 1 plot with access only from the main road. We are visiting the Mairie tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polly Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 pachapapa, I've just checked : my link works on 2 different browsers, try it againhttp://www2.equipement.gouv.fr/formulaires/docassocies/51190.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote user="Polly"]pachapapa, I've just checked : my link works on 2 different browsers, try it againhttp://www2.equipement.gouv.fr/formulaires/docassocies/51190.pdf[/quote]Works on 3.[:D]http://www2.equipement.gouv.fr/formulaires/docassocies/51190.pdfI must have inadvertently copied your devious leading colon.[I] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppy Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 Many thanks both for the link, according to the regs we don't need any permission. Visited the mairie yesterday and we were told to submit a Declaration Prealable and that a wall can be built directly on the boundary with the chemin and a metre in from the 'main' road. Filling in planning permission forms is second nature now and I guess it will secure our position. Did get a bit miffed when we passed a plot on way back from mairie where a drive was being installed to a mobile home which had an abri with tiled roof over it - of course it's not permanent!!We actually spoke to the Maire who said absolutely no plans to enlarge the chemin for vehicles. The SAUR have however just pulled up, walked down the chemin, then knocked asking us if we want to remove our trees (they reckon two conifers are on the chemin) before the road is widened [8-)] Definitely time for a glass of red medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 The permission for a lotissement will depend on the access; read wide enough for an engine of security for fighting against fires.The access road will be fixed first then the lotissement can blossom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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