I can't find justice in France - it would not happen in England

[greenfingers]

Anybody living in France would know that customer service's is hard to find. It took me six months into living here when shock horror happen. My bank manager decided to move my money into somebody else's bank account with out any authorization, when i asked the manager where was the authorization he closed my dossier and said tribunal, he would not even have a translator present. The sum that was moved is the price of a house, not a small sum. I was given help my the french system CAF because of special reason's, and given legal help my advocat wrote 3 letters to my bank over a period of 6 months no reply, she started taking me seriously another 6 months to get it in front of the courts just to ask them to supply my bank statements and the paper of authorization, it took 6 times in court because the advocat working for the bank said they did not have all there papers, the Judge decided that there was no papers of authorization. It takes my advocat 5 months to tell me that she has joined an association that the bank is a client and can't help me anymore, passed me to another advocat who 6 months later has not answered any of my letters to her, but she doe's have my dossier. I have been informed that there is a time scale of 3 years and I can not do anything. I wrote a letter to the Procureur asking him to look in my case and give me justice in this country France how it has let me down. I put my money in a French Bank to keep it safe, they moved my money, why is it that I have to fight this case, with no funds and living on the bread line, no one what's to believe the bank can make a mistake and cover it up, they expected me to go back home. I see my Bank Managers face when he said to me and my son Tribunal, he still has his job and nothing has changed for him, for me and my son living here as been hell. 3 years has moved on and I am waiting to here from Procureur. Is there anybody out there with any advise or having something similar happening to them i would like to hear from you. Is there no justice here.

[dave21478]

Bummer.

 But its not just a French thing.

A chap I know of paid a 5 figure sum into his UK account, having sold his car.

The money just disappeared into the ether - seemingly his paying-in slip was not acceptable proof....I can't remember the details now, this is going back a while, but nobody accepted any responsibility and he lost the lot. He chased them through internal complaints, ombudsman, lawyers etc but it was all in vain. Its unknown whether it just disappeared, went into some other random's account or if some sticky fingered employee had it, but either way, the money was gone and the bank didn't give a toss.

[debbie]

Which banks are these? We have our mortgage account with Barclay's and I am a bit concerned after reading these two posts.

[AnOther]

Your story beggars belief.

Sadly, whilst it remains wholly within French jurisdiction, you are powerless and at their mercy so have you thought about complaining to the EU Ombudsman http://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/media/en/default.htm

Bonne chance.

[5-element]

Although this seems to have gone quite far, I would have thought that the CLCV (consumers association) could help for a start:

http://www.clcv.org/Les-consommateurs-et-leur-banque.1820.0.html

Aren't there also "médiateurs" in case of conflicts with banks? (Obviously, not the bank's mediateur, but someone independent).

The CLCV would be a good start, at least able to advise you once they have seen your "dossier".

 

 

[idun]

I realise that you have now gone to the Procureur, but why didn't you go straight to the police or gendarmes as soon as it happened, this is theft/fraud.

I might have messed around for a little bit of money, but for my house price, no, I would have been screaming blue murder and I would frankly be onto the police etc, as well as british and french newspapers.

Get onto Watchdog in the UK. Get onto Homes from Hell on british tv. Get onto every last newspaper. Make sure you have details to back you up, you will have all your paperwork won't you.

I don't understand why a judge didn't do anything either, all very strange.

[crossy67]

Name and shame the bank so others can avoid them.

Similar thing although not the same happened to me, our bank kept pestering us to change accounts as we had a large sum saved up.  We moved accounts once, we noticed about a month before we went to France to look for our new home that in one of the account moves they had moved the entire contents from a joint account in both Julie and my names into one in only Julies names.  Good job my wife and I are getting along, I know spouses that would have done a runner.

[Clair]

[quote]Name and shame the bank so others can avoid them.[/quote]

A quick reminder of the forum Code of Conduct might be appropriate here:

There is to be no 'naming

and shaming' on the site. If you have any complaints about particular

individuals/companies then contact the relevant parties or authorities.

Forum Moderators

[crossy67]

Sorry.[:(]  Edited to remove my bank's name.

[Patf]

greenfingers - was the money transferred to someone who was selling a house that you had been interested in buying?

I think it's possible in France  to go to Tribunal to obtain a right to obtain  money from someone else's account. Under certain conditions.

[Chancer]

Had you by any chance just transferred this large sum of money to your French account from a UK or other account?

It could have been automatically swept into an escrow account under so called anti-money laundering legislation, in this instance the local manager may have had no knowledge whatsoever of this sum of money.

Was it showing on your account? Is there a reason why do you not have any statements for the period?

[greenfingers]

Thank you for giving me the information about the EU Ombudsman I will look into it.

[greenfingers]

To answer some of your questions.

I was first directed to an Avocat, and she recommended writing to the Bank because there must be a reasonable explanation, and we must be seen to take the right steps. The courts have to decide plus the legal aid if there is a case. I came to France to work to rent a restaurant, I did not sign for anything and it did not work out, because he got the money with out me, but with the help of the bank.When I came to France the funds were cleared into my personal bank account, through the sale of my house in England. What I can't get my head around , I have to take the person who ended up with my money to the tribunal and the Bank because I have to show how he got the money with out my Authorisation, No one wants to go up against the Bank. I thought once it had been heard at the first hearing just asking for papers, (because they would not supply anything to my Avocat) to see if I had a case to take to the tribunal that the Judge would say 'put this women money back' not to be. Why do we put our money in a Bank, what responsibility do they have to protect it. When I went to see the Directeur de Secteur when he gave me about 10 minutes of his time and closed my dossier saying Tribunal, why are we not on the same side, the bank helping me, giving me guidance as to what action to take, or why are they not taking the person concerned to the Tribunal, I thought that they would have had , their own fraud section. Instead just shown the door. Can anyone advise me what responsibllity does a Bank take.

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="greenfingers"]I came to France to work to rent a restaurant, I did not sign for anything and it did not work out, because he got the money with out me, but with the help of the bank.When I came to France the funds were cleared into my personal bank account, through the sale of my house in England. What I can't get my head around , I have to take the person who ended up with my money to the tribunal and the Bank because I have to show how he got the money with out my Authorisation, [/quote]

If I read this correctly, you intended to start up a business with another person.  That other person managed to obtain funding (through the same bank as you) so he proceed with the venture on his own.  Was he the person who ended up with your money?

There's more than meets the eye, here........[8-)]

 

 

[pachapapa]

I was also getting an inkling that someone had proceded with the proceeds.[8-)]

[NickP]

It's begining to sound like send me your bank account details and your mothers maiden name,  oh and while your at it give me your pin number. Hmmmm Sorry, but sounds very suspicious to me.

[Chancer]

[quote user="greenfingers"]I came to France to work to rent a restaurant, I did not sign for anything and it did not work out, because he got the money with out me, but with the help of the bank.[/quote]

Would this "he" have been your partner as well as business partner by any chance?

[AnOther]

I didn't want to be the first to say it however there was a subtle but intentional hint of irony in my initial comment. As presented it did seem 'beyond belief'' and possibly less than the full story.

[allanb]

[quote user="Chancer"]Had you by any chance just transferred this large sum of money to your French account from a UK or other account? 

It could have been automatically swept into an escrow account under so called anti-money laundering legislation, in this instance the local manager may have had no knowledge whatsoever of this sum of money...[/quote]

I'm amazed by the idea that a transfer can be "automatically" diverted under money-laundering legislation, or indeed any other legislation.  Automatically on whose authority?  Can you give any reference for this?

I'm aware that bankers and lawyers may be required to notify the authorities about certain transactions, and may not be allowed to inform the client that they have done so.  But actually diverting funds is different. 

Even if I'm wrong and such a thing can happen, a bank manager would surely have been aware of the possibility.

By the way, I agree with those who suspect that we're not getting the full story here.

[PaulT]

Perhaps that is why the bank and tribunal were not interested - judgements cannot be made on a part story, indeed, part stories must be treated with suspicion.

Why do posters do it - is it to try to gain sympathy when given the whole story would gain them none?

Paul

[Chancer]

[quote user="allanb"][quote user="Chancer"]Had you by any chance just transferred this large sum of money to your French account from a UK or other account? 

It could have been automatically swept into an escrow account under so called anti-money laundering legislation, in this instance the local manager may have had no knowledge whatsoever of this sum of money...[/quote]

I'm amazed by the idea that a transfer can be "automatically" diverted under money-laundering legislation, or indeed any other legislation.  Automatically on whose authority?  Can you give any reference for this?

I'm aware that bankers and lawyers may be required to notify the authorities about certain transactions, and may not be allowed to inform the client that they have done so.  But actually diverting funds is different. 

Even if I'm wrong and such a thing can happen, a bank manager would surely have been aware of the possibility.

By the way, I agree with those who suspect that we're not getting the full story here.

[/quote]

I cant give you a reference only that I have read many tales on forums (so of course they must all be true [;-)]) of this happening when large sums are transferred, I think it is only intended to be held for a short while pending verification but if it were to fall between the end of June and la rentrée....................

In each case the manager of the branch intended to recieve the transfer had no knowledge, being France I can 100% believe this, clearly some are more disposed than others to embark on what to them may seem like a wild goose chase on the whim of a mad foreigner who doesnt speak the language, not surprisingly they tell the customer to take it up with the sending bank.

[Chancer]

FWIW I reckon that it was a joint account and one of the signatories withdrew the money, whether the bank should have insisted on both signatures or whether one was forged only the tribunal can decide, with a large sum of money at stake it would be irresponsible of the bank to pay out double the funds of an account on the say so of one account holder who may well be married or the partner of the other.

Of course I may be totally wrong, - over to you Greensleeves..................

[greenfingers]

[quote user="PaulT"]

Perhaps that is why the bank and tribunal were not interested - judgements cannot be made on a part story, indeed, part stories must be treated with suspicion.

Why do posters do it - is it to try to gain sympathy when given the whole story would gain them none?

Paul

[/quote]

It has NOT been dismissed from the tribunal,at the last judgement they passed a decision that the Bank does not have the papers of authority, we can now go to the Tribunal, when my new Avocat decideds to write to me, I have been writing and asking for the last 6 months. I am a women in my 50's I have had my own business and bank accounts, I came to France for a better life like lots of other people that is my crime . The business that I came here for was a small restaurant and a large plot of land, that I was going to have as a garden centre, I am RHS trained with a degree in landscape design. The deal was for me to rent the property and land and if I wanted to at a later stage I could buy. The business man had been living here 10 years with his wife and was personal friends with the bank manager, had lots of property and I met lots of his clients that had brought varies propertys from him.

[greenfingers]

[quote user="NickP"]

It's begining to sound like send me your bank account details and your mothers maiden name,  oh and while your at it give me your pin number. Hmmmm Sorry, but sounds very suspicious to me.

[/quote]

[Will]

If a joint account is in the names of, for example, 'M et Mme...' then both signatures are required, if 'M ou Mme...' then just one signature is all that is necessary. The latter option is usually recommended for couples, mainly to prevent difficulties if one partner should die, but obviously carries a risk in the case of separation or disagreement.

But of course, we are only speculating. From the above responses it doesn't sound as if the two business partners would have such an account, and in the case of a business account there should be safeguards in place to prevent just one signatory being able to walk off with all the cash.