Auto-Certification Fiscale

[Idealdeux]

Hi, we are French property owners but live in the UK and pay UK taxes. We've had a French bank account for over ten years now and for the first time this year have received a Auto-Certification Fiscale. From what I can work out, it relates to American tax and residence status. Has anyone else had one of these to complete and return. I can't see the appropriate place to say we are UK tax payers.

Thanks.

[idun]

I apologise in advance if this sounds like a rant, but that is what it will be, because I am furious beyond words about this. But please read it, as it may help.

The form you have had sent to you is to indicate clearly that you are not american.

First rant, HOW DARE THEY EVEN ASK!!!!! ? What a question, to get most things done in France, they just about need us chipped and tatoo'd they have copies of our passports and bills and goodness knows what else, they know who we are.

Then on the form it will ask for your NIF, which on the form I received says that for the american tax authorities......... not the UK ones, it is called a TIN. And it should say that if you do not have one, then to put N/A.

Second rant, on the EU web site it states that people who are asked for these numbers may not have them. However, in spite of this, N/A was insufficient for my bank, and another poster's french bank.

It is not our fault that the french do not know how other countries tax systems work.

The bloody brilliant EU have signed up the the americans and we all have to state whether we are american or not............. GRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!

This only applies, if we have a bank account in another country, other than the one we live in (as far as I am aware). And the french authorities demand a NIF(TIN)number even if we do not have one, my bank suggesting that I commit fraud, and yet the form they require me to fill in, states clearly that if Icommit fraud, then I risk a fine and prison.......... great eh!!!!!!!

Now if by chance you do UK self assessment, then you will have a tax number, and you can put this on the form. HOWEVER, if you do not do self assessment, then you will have to contact HMRC and ask them to send you a letter stating that you do not have a TIN and hope that your french bank will accept it this letter. and that is not a certainty.

They did accept mine, but believe me, only after I kicked off! As you can see, I am really wound up about this, as the reality is that I had to plead with HMRC, to write me a letter for my french bank, who apart from menacing me with fines and prison, will then pass it on to the french tax office, TO HAND THE DETAILS TO THE HMRC.

The world has gone mad.

Anyone watch Christies the other night. Picture sold for £60 million or there abouts, all anonymous, apparently and I am being hounded, threatened, when basically, I have NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!

That the EU has insisted upon everyone being checked on, is all very well, but do these EUrocratic morons not actually realise that each country has it's own tax system and every last thing should have been spelt our VERY CLEARLY, to stop the citizens of this great european empire from being treat like criminals when they are not dishonest and are simply going about their everyday lives.

Rant over.

And good luck!

nb, bed time and if I need to edit this, I shall do it later.

 

[lindal1000]

I understand your frustration but it was the good old US of A who insisted that overseas banks would be compelled to notify them of any citizens who had accounts, and will fine the bank if they don't. US citizens living in France are now finding that banks are just refusing to give them accounts because they don't want the hassle.

The agreement to share tax details is a country by country agreement, not EU related. It will still continue after brexit.

[PaulT]

Idealdeux welcome to the forum and how lucky to get Idun in full flight :)

I am the other person referred to, look at:

http://services.completefrance.com/forums/completefrance-forums/cs/forums/3441778/ShowPost.aspx

which is a post that I made about this and raised Iduns blood pressure then.

My form stated put down your NIF or put 'NA' if you do not have one.

They returned the form with a circle around 'NIF' in the question with an arrow to where it has to go.

Clearly French bank employees have their brains removed as part of their induction otherwise they might wonder why the question allows for 'NA' to be put.

In 'pommes' reply to my question he/she put the references to the various EU documents.

This is the webpage for the UK regulations:

In English

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/tin/pdf/en/TIN_-_country_sheet_UK_en.pdf

In French

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/tin/pdf/fr/TIN_-_country_sheet_UK_fr.pdf

This is the French regulations:

In English

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/tin/pdf/en/TIN_-_country_sheet_FR_en.pdf

In French

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/tin/pdf/fr/TIN_-_country_sheet_FR_fr.pdf

And about TIN:

In English

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/tax-cooperation-control/administrative-cooperation/tax-identification-numbers-tin_en

In French

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/tax-cooperation-control/administrative-cooperation/tax-identification-numbers-tin_fr

I did as Idun suggested and contacted HMRC - note phoning starts off with a game of snakes and ladders. A computer asks if you have registered for self assessment. Answer no, and it tells you to go to the Internet and set yourself up and you slide down a snake and the automated voice says 'goodbye'. Second time say you are registered for self assessment and provided you avoid the other snakes along the way you will climb up the ladders until you speak to an actual human. The person I spoke to did not seem amazed at my request and said that a letter would be sent out stating that I did not have an NIF or UTR in UK terms. I also asked if I could pass her on to my wife as she would also need this but was told that would not be necessary as we were linked on their system and she would send out a letter for her.

The return deadline set by our bank was 6 December. Yesterday morning I wrote a letter explaining why I could not enter an NIF pointing out that the French and UK systems were different, that I did not have to complete a self assessment and enclosed printouts of the above webpages pointing the bank to the key passages. I also said that if I ever received the letters from HMRC that I would forward these. Went to the Post Office and sent the forms, letters and enclosures by Tracked and Signed. In the letter I asked that they reply stating that the forms had been completed correctly. Then came back and observed the sky for flying pigs.

Early afternoon and the postman arrived bearing letters from HMRC so another letter enclosing the letters from HMRC and back to the Post Office to send them off.

Best of luck

[Chancer]

Lets hope for the time being that they are only doing this for those with French bank accounts who are non resident and non French taxpayers although you do have my sympathies because I had a similar experience many years back leading to my French bank account being closed and me declared interdit bancaire because I had got fed up of jumping through the same hoops year after year sending them the same photocopy of the same passport year after year, in my case the response to a N/A and an explanation was to close the account because I was doing their narrow heads in.

 

Worse off I had no problems for years, they had my French address and did not even know of my UK one, then suddenly the statements went to the UK which was very inconvenient, dont know where or how they got the address, I could not get them to send them to my Frenh address where I live, they even told me that I did not live here I lived in england, that they had no record of my French address, "informatiquement" they had never had it, so I asked them by what magic every one of my cheques carried my correct French address, they had no answer to that [:'(]

 

it was after that when things went downhill, I have learned to my cost that ignoring the hoop jumping demands result in being dropped like a stone without any notification.

[mint]

Can't answer the OP's question and I am not even sure that what I am going to say will explain anything to anybody!

But here goes, au cas ou (as the French say![:)]):

I have had a letter from Nationwide, asking the same sort of thing.  Was I American?  If not, in which other country do I pay tax?  Then, enough spaces for, I think, 4 countries.

I put France and put my TIN.

The letter then says, give us copies of documents to support your answers.  So I sent a copy of my passport (British) and a copy of our latest French tax demand.

The only threat that I could see about not complying is that they would give all my bank details to the government (UK govt, I suppose).

Maybe your French form is the equivalent of my Nationwide form?

[Hereford]

Our letters from nationwide arrived today. Presumably we wait for Barclays as well to send us letters!

Luckily we have UK UTR's so no problem.

All sounds a bit ridiculous to us.

[idun]

Thing was that it wasn't 'just' some little bit of small print but a full paragraph.

Nous attirons votre attention sur le fait qu'etablir une attestation ou un certificat faisant etat de fait materiellement inexacts, falsifier une attestation ou un certificat originairement sincere our faire usage d'une attestation ou d'un certificat inexact ou falsifie et puni, conformement a l'article 441-7 dur Code penal, d'un an d'emprisonnement et de 15000€ d'amende. Ces peins sont portees a trois ans d'emprisonnement et a 45000€ d'amende lorsque l'infraction est commise en vue de porter prejudice au Tresor Public ou au patrimoine d'autrui.

And if I have made a mistake with that lot, I apologise, my eyes are spinning.

So my french bank has this, along with a load of stuff which is actually, OTHER small print, and then recontacted by email me asking for the NIF, TIN in spite of incidating N/A. And then THEY SUGGESTED that I did XYand Z which would have been fraud.  I refused. And I believed that this was then end.

But no, it was not.

I got another set of forms with a letter and the jolly phrase saying that they had sent me these forms and they had not received them, well, sauf erreur de notre part, nous restons dans l'attente de cette auto-certification.

NOW, how can they be waiting for these forms, when they have them and contacted me about them  -  and that, where I come from is LIES!!!

And if I had mildly kicked off initially, I then really kicked off. I did not, as is my usual thing, get anyone to check my french, but sent emails and details.

Eventually, I received an email stating that all was OK. But I had a letter from the HMRC with the forms I re-sent, AND they were not happy about that either.

But how can it be OK? They will be doing this every year now and I am confronted with liars and ingnorance.

I contacted my MEP, chocolate fireguards, suggested that I contact a lawyer. So they are now going to have my wrath.

And illustrates the EU. The rules are there in all languages, but not an explanation for the different countries as to how to treat this when, say countries have very different systems and a complete lack of comprehension on the part of staff in the institutions that anything can be done differently anywhere else. It should be clear, so that everyone knows what they are doing.

French banks apparently do not have to do this to any client living in France.

And the irony that the HMRC, has to prove this, for the french to pass back to them, well irony, no actually, irony usually makes me smile, and not one bit of this has.

a very riled IDUN, WHO IS NOT AMERICAN and should never have been asked THAT  in the first place. Tell the yanks to XX!!!!