Holographe will wording & UK will compatibility

[jon]

Hi,

I've had a good read through this forum but haven't quite found the same circumstances - so please excuse a familiar topic! And the long post...

I'm British and permanently based in the UK but own 50% of a property in France (I'm not related to the person owning the other 50%). I have a self-penned 'Holographe' Will for the French property - something which I was advised a few years ago by a French Advocat. My 50% is left solely to my partner who has recently become my wife and we have a six month old son.

1) Can anyone suggest how to change the wording of the Holographe Will so that it is clear the person stipulated is my wife - rather than my partner as she was. I just want to be sure I do it correctly. Do I just change it to 'ma femme' then her married name...?

And then to change the second clause so if predeceased it goes to my son (not sister)?

Current wording is:-

Je soussigné xx, demeurant (UK address), désigne pour légataire de ma moitié indivise dans le bien immobilier sis à xx consistant en un chalet individuel, Mademoiselle X, demeurant (UK address).

En cas de prédécès de Madamoiselle X, je désigne pour légataire de ce bien ma soeur étant xxx.

2) At the time the will was drawn up I thought the property had been bought 'en tontine' - however on checking the Acte de Vente it seems we bought it 'indivision'. Is this a problem with the Holographe Will as it stands? Is the holographe sufficient?

3) I currently do not have a UK will. I was hoping to have one drawn up specifying that I wanted my estate (including the French property) dealt with under UK law - the new succession legislation (EU650/2012)? Would a UK Will and the French Holographe Will for the property sit happily together?

4) If the UK Will is drawn up as above presumably that may all have to change when Brexit happens.?

Thanks in advance!

[andyh4]

I cannot help with most of this but on point 3 I would have thought the safest route would be to stipulate in your Holographe will that you wish your UK will to define the disposal of your French assets.

There can then be no conflicts unless/until Brexit prohibits the use of a UK will in France.

[EuroTrash]

Don't worry, if and when the time comes for your wife to inherit the notaire will study the relationship very carefully because the legal relationship of the beneficiary to the deceased makes all the difference to whether or not or how much inheritance tax is payable. Your wife will be required to produce her birth certificate, marriage certificate etc.

As suggested, you would definitely need to draw up a UK will if you wish your sister to inherit should your wife predecease you. Otherwise since you have a son, under French law the property or at least part of it has to go to him, you cannot disinherit your son in favour of your sister.

But first of all I think you need to see a notaire to find out the implications of "indivision". As I understand it, if you buy en indivision you do not own half the property each, you own the entire property jointly, which makes it a lot more complicated.

[parsnips]

[quote user="jon"]Hi,

I've had a good read through this forum but haven't quite found the same circumstances - so please excuse a familiar topic! And the long post...

I'm British and permanently based in the UK but own 50% of a property in France (I'm not related to the person owning the other 50%). I have a self-penned 'Holographe' Will for the French property - something which I was advised a few years ago by a French Advocat. My 50% is left solely to my partner who has recently become my wife and we have a six month old son.

1) Can anyone suggest how to change the wording of the Holographe Will so that it is clear the person stipulated is my wife - rather than my partner as she was. I just want to be sure I do it correctly. Do I just change it to 'ma femme' then her married name...?

And then to change the second clause so if predeceased it goes to my son (not sister)?

Current wording is:-

Je soussigné xx, demeurant (UK address), désigne pour légataire de ma moitié indivise dans le bien immobilier sis à xx consistant en un chalet individuel, Mademoiselle X, demeurant (UK address).

En cas de prédécès de Madamoiselle X, je désigne pour légataire de ce bien ma soeur étant xxx.

2) At the time the will was drawn up I thought the property had been bought 'en tontine' - however on checking the Acte de Vente it seems we bought it 'indivision'. Is this a problem with the Holographe Will as it stands? Is the holographe sufficient?

3) I currently do not have a UK will. I was hoping to have one drawn up specifying that I wanted my estate (including the French property) dealt with under UK law - the new succession legislation (EU650/2012)? Would a UK Will and the French Holographe Will for the property sit happily together?

4) If the UK Will is drawn up as above presumably that may all have to change when Brexit happens.?

Thanks in advance![/quote]

Hi,

  EDIT.  I must correct 1) 

  In my opinion;

  1)  "Je soussigné ..................legue ma moitié................à MON CONJOINT*, à defaut  mes heritiers legaux. (  *in french law your son will be entitled to 1/3 of the property).

 2)   If in indivision the property can only be sold with the consent of the joint owners. An olographe will would seem to be adequate .

3)    The UK is not a signature to the regulation so the french property may  always pass under french law (the situation is still unclear-and would surely lead to expensive legal procedures ) but it will always be subject to french tax law, and the succession to it managed by a french notaire.  You should mention the french property in the english will but leave it in exactly the same terms. (your wife is exempt from french inheritance tax).

4) Brexit will have no effect on EU650/2012 as that applies to all residents (regardless of country of origin) of all signature countries.   UK /France tax arrangements are under a bi-lateral treaty (convention international 2008) and have nothing to do with membership of the EU.

      

[jon]

Hi - Thank you all for your advice and time. And thank you for the improved wording of the holographe.

Parsnips - can I just clarify the answers to my points 3 & 4:-

- The UK will should mention the property in the same terms as the holographe.

- A French notaire will always be necessary for the chalet succession due to French TAX law, but the holographe should suffice.

And a final question:-

- Is there then actually any point me stipulating in my UK will that I want the chalet dealt with under UK law?

Thanks.

[parsnips]

[quote user="jon"]Hi - Thank you all for your advice and time. And thank you for the improved wording of the holographe.

Parsnips - can I just clarify the answers to my points 3 & 4:-

- The UK will should mention the property in the same terms as the holographe........Any mention of the french property in the UK will must not contradict the French will.

- A French notaire will always be necessary for the chalet succession due to French TAX law, but the holographe should suffice.......Any real estate passing in France MUST be dealt with by a Notaire....A properly written and registered olograph will is perfectly sufficient.

And a final question:-

- Is there then actually any point me stipulating in my UK will that I want the chalet dealt with under UK law?

.........In my opinion not really ; if you want to exclude your son and leave 100% to your wife , you should make a french will opting for UK law , this would

apply to all your assets in France.Thanks.[/quote]

Hi,

Answers in message.

[jon]

Thanks - this is so helpful.

Your final comment raises one issue. It's not that I want to exclude my son, I just want to make the process of succession as simple as possible for my wife. And I assumed the way to do that was to leave her 100% - but maybe I am wrong in this thinking?

[The property is just a holiday home, it's my only French asset, we are planning to sell it in a couple of years anyway, my son is only 8mths old, my wife would likely sell the property immediately on my death...].

Sorry bit morbid to start off a bank holiday....

[parsnips]

[quote user="jon"]Thanks - this is so helpful.

Your final comment raises one issue. It's not that I want to exclude my son, I just want to make the process of succession as simple as possible for my wife. And I assumed the way to do that was to leave her 100% - but maybe I am wrong in this thinking?

[The property is just a holiday home, it's my only French asset, we are planning to sell it in a couple of years anyway, my son is only 8mths old, my wife would likely sell the property immediately on my death...].

Sorry bit morbid to start off a bank holiday....[/quote]

Hi,

   If  either of you were to  die , the survivor would not be able to sell without the permission of the french court.:- see here ;

http://leparticulier.lefigaro.fr/jcms/p1_1323123/en-cas-de-deces-de-l-un-des-parents-le-parent-survivant-peut-il-decider-seul-de-vendre-le-bien-immobilier-de-son-enfant-mineur

I take it that you are the sole owner of the 1/2 of the property - in which case your son would be entitled to 1/2 of your share, and you could leave 1/2 to your wife..

This might be avoided by taking UK law for your wills; You really need to talk to a good notaire with knowledge of the regulations on opting for UK law on this point.    Or you could carry on till you sell and hope that (as is most likely) you survive .