Good News - Forced Registration

[Miki]

We are close to Saint Malo and not too far from the Normandy border which is close to Le Mont St Michel at around 35 minutes or so away.

I have nothing whatsoever to with the annual bourse touristique but from what I understand, it has been going on for many years and what happens, is that almost all the well known and not so well known places of interest in our arera of Britany, that want to advertise their "being", bring along masses of publicity to hand out to the G de Fr members who then in turn offer it to their guests. Without this meeting, it would be totally impossible for us to get enough publicité for our clients from the local tourist office(s). I think it a little different to the bourse touristiques that we visit in other places to encourage further tourism.

I am surprised by your returns for Guide Routard as again, it does not do much for friends here, indeed our friend with a lovely watermill has shown such little returns with them, that this year after 5 years he has stopped his affiliation with them. A picture is emerging of different areas even within regions, where one thing will work well but not in another place.

It is very difficult to get an exact point of certainty of what works. One has to remember  that a booking from one source may be seconds behind another, so would have gained a booking had it been slightly earlier but in general one can only go on certain bookings I guess.

Website for us is right up there but with so many sites and many still quite unknown to me or rather I have forgotten over they years where we are, a point proven in a chat with Arnold (mascamps on here)! Gites de Fr are well ahead in the proven bookings and no one gets close. Repeats are quite healthy and I have to admit I am not quite so techie when it comes to keeping records of who came from where etc, my business acumen with B&B has been, do we get by, are the bills all comfortably paid off, do we ensure all is well with our guests, can we do better, if all is OK, and we can afford to go out, take lunches, take long breaks, go to the Uk whenever we want, then if so, we are doing alright !! That is a bit tongue in cheek but I expect you get my point ?

Not a great way to do things maybe but I spent an awful long time in the UK worrying about figures and getting enough money for the good things in life, I was not going to go along too rigid along that route here, although I am sorely tempted to but, find we honestly don't have the time for a few months in high season to do much more than sleep, serve, clean, eat, serve and sleep again ! Then start all over again !

Our clientele is hugely varied, I cannot think of many Europeans that we have not entertained, lots of Americans some years, it depends of course, Canadians, New Zealanders, Aussies and lots more. It is extremely difficult for us some nights when apart from us and a couple of French themselves being the only ones that speak French but that is the point of travelling, we cannot expect all people from the southern hemisphere, USA etc (or anywhere I guess but it would be nice if more made some effort) to speak French (some do of course) so we have to try and find common ground. It all comes down to the folks themselves and as I said earlier, some snooty people can make it so damned awkward for everyone and as I mentioned earlier, we have a meeting soon where dealing with complaints will be talked about, now that is a first for G de FR !!

[mascamps.com]

I think that the most important thing re your sources of bookings is to try to maintain something of a balance. For instance, in our own case way down here near Perpignan, last year we had a three way tie between phone/driveby, our own website and reservation systems. I'd really liked to have been able to breakdown the source of the phone customers but couldn't manage it last year.

It's very high risk if you get to the point where any one source represents more than 50% of your total income. When you get to that point, that source, whether it be GdF, CleV, Sawdays or whatever is able to start dictating terms to you rather than the other way round as I think it should be.

One thing that's hard to avoid is the internet and I suspect that some newcomers (and perhaps some old hands too) have become almost completely dependent on it. To my eyes (and I come to it from an internet background), that is totally crazy. Aside from anything else, if you only do internet promotion, you are losing out an entire category of customers who just don't have internet access or don't trust it. Two notable categories spring to mind in our own case: the older generation and the French are both much lower users of the internet than the average person in, say, the UK. A very broad brush generalisation, I know! So, in general terms, those relying largely on the internet may well miss out on, in particular, the older French, who presumably use the likes of GdF more than the average.

Even "the internet" is a broad canvas. Last year a number of local gites (it's more gites than B&Bs here at the moment) got nobody from frenchconnections yet previously they'd done very well with it: they had ended up totally dependent on one website. As Miki's said he's long since forgotten all the places he's listed on and really that's how it should be: the only limit on the number of free places that you're listed on should be your time because when you get right down to it, you've no idea what search terms or what site your future guests will use to find you. That's why I always tell people listing on ourinns.org not to make it their only listing.

Same thing applies with the various guides: for one reason or another you may well get more of a particular type of person using a particular guide. For instance, those guides that are exclusively French are clearly going to be used more by francophones than anglophones (thereby considerbly limiting their market and yours).

Incidently, re the language issue, we record both the nationality and which language can be used to contact each of our guests. Last year we'd 52% english speaking, 37% french speaking, 7% spanish speaking and the remaining 4% a bit of a mix. Is that a broadly typical mix?

 

 

Arnold

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]That's interesting about the Sawday guides. Before we even considered buying a holiday home in France, let alone living and working here, we used to travel around with the Sawday guide (1st preferen...[/quote]

Hi Will,

That's interesting. In fact, I wonder how many of the people who've bought in France used Sawday rather than other guides. I'd guess that the proprtion is far higher than for other English language guides.

Then you said:-

Interesting too that it was Clévacances that dear old Nigel applied to for, and failed to get, a grading for his latest venture.

=======

I hope I'm not treading on anyone's toes, here, but every time I watch the man's antics he has me frothing at the mouth. But no doubt that's why they screen it.

A level of egocentricity that has me reeling. A lack of any kind of foresight that is breathtaking in its stupidity, and an ability to fly in the face of common sense that reminds me of another Brit who came out to do B&B not far from us. But that's another story.

Unbelievable.

[mascamps.com]

I'm sure that he can't be as gullible as he appears on screen.

Who these days would think that they would get away with basically buying a big house and starting to do B&B from a couple of bedrooms without considering that we've moved on a bit from the days when shared bathrooms were really an acceptable standard? Has anyone looked up his B&B? Is it actually operational at the moment?

 

Arnold

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]We are close to Saint Malo and not too far from the Normandy border which is close to Le Mont St Michel at around 35 minutes or so away. I have nothing whatsoever to with the annual bourse touristi...[/quote]

Hi again,

More or less what I thought, thanks. I can well imagine that the level of competition and the amount of tourism, combined with your convenient location for people from the CI and the UK must make your experience as B&B host almost entirely different from ours.

You said:-

>I am surprised by your returns for Guide Routard as again, it does not do much for friends here, indeed our friend with a lovely watermill has shown such little returns with them, that this year after 5

Oh dear, I'm not here to brag, but we were chosen as a "coup de coeur" in the national B&B guide, which was extremely lucky for us. That's probably why we do well from them.

Talking about techy stuff, you said:-

> Gites de Fr are well ahead in the proven bookings and no one gets close. Repeats are quite healthy and I have to admit I am not quite so techie when it comes to keeping records of who came from where etc, my business acumen with B&B has been, "do we get by? Are the bills all comfortably paid?".

Grin!! At the end of the day, that's what counts of course. But because I use my computer to hold a database of clients addresses & other contact details, it was simple and seemed logical to add a couple of other boxes to fill in, like what we'd fed them, what they can't eat, and where they heard of us. So when I wasa writing to you, I quickly fired up the database, and did a series of selections for the most important different sources of customer. But in fact, for us the advantage is that we can also be cold eyed about what (paid) guide is good value for us and what isn't, and also for basic statistical info. You were talking about where your guests come from, well it's totally trivial for me to find out that 62% of our customers are French, 4% Belgian, 21% British and the rest scattered around from the USA, Australia, Holland and Germany in no particular order. But the truth is that I rather enjoy playing with it!

Complaints. We have too many. In fact, I was appointed at the last "Bureau" meeting of our local GdF association to be the person who deal with complaints. I think they did it for two reasons. One nicer than the other. They know that I'm extremely tough on low standards - above all in cleanliness and level of welcome - and play no favourites. I like to think that's the good side. The bad side (being cynical) is that as I'm foreign, they can always get an attack of sloping shoulders, in the event that I put some influential person's nose out of joint! "Well, you know how it is, he can't be expected to understand the subtleties". And dump me!

The complaints we have are usually about those two subjects, but of course, they are extremely hard to substantiate if they are made a month after they get back home. GdF say in their brochure that only complaints made during the stay can be dealt with by the local office, but the DGCRF (or whatever the acronym is) WILL entertain complaints afterwards, and GdF lack the courage to stand up to them. With all the consumer affairs programs on TV talking about complaining, some people apparently complain on principle to try to get some money back.

Cor, I must stop. I'm waffling on.

[Miki]

It's very high risk if you get to the point where any one source represents more than 50% of your total income. When you get to that point, that source, whether it be GdF, CleV, Sawdays or whatever is able to start dictating terms to you rather than the other way round as I think it should be.

Arnold,

I am not sure where you are going with this ? We reserve on a first come first served basis, so we don't care if it is 100% G de Fr and no others or 1% G de Fr and 99% others. How does that enable any of them to dictate terms ? We make up our own prices for the rooms and table d'hôtes, we open and shut when we state in the book and open up daily at 16.30 and we stick with that routine and the prices throughout our advertising. Have I misread your meaning here ?

 

 

 

 

[mascamps.com]

Miki, it's true that it doesn't matter on a day to day basis if 100% were GdF but the problem is that it makes you very dependent on them and that is what is risky.

OK, they may not in practice dictate terms that much, but what if one day they decided that you had to do X to continue to be listed and for some reason you either couldn't do X or weren't prepared to do X? You would then have nothing to fall back on. Again, I accept that it's probably unlikely that they would do something like that in the forseeable future.

On the other hand, what if they enforced that rule (guideline?) that someone spoke about earlier of not taking any place that was in a village of more than 1500 people? It's possible that you could start off OK in a village of 1000 and find yourself thrown out when it reached 1501. I just give that as a possible example and perhaps they don't worry about villages growing like that.

The other risk is external: what if, for some reason, their system stops working? For instance, what if the French start using the internet to book their holidays? GdF may have a monopoly (by and large) with French gites/B&Bs in guides but that's not the case online. If that happened, you could find that the bookings from GdF dropped suddenly. Actually, I think that's perhaps the biggest single risk that they face: we've noticed that the younger French DO use the internet and that's probably one of the things that has allowed the B&B market to grow outside the GdF system.

I think you need to look on a dependency on a single supplier of guests (or anything else) as a potential risk and seek to reduce that dependency. You just can't rely on something like the GdF system working for you forever (and I know that you don't).

 

Arnold

 

 

[Miki]

 Miki, it's true that it doesn't matter on a day to day basis if 100% were GdF but the problem is that it makes you very dependent on them and that is what is risky.

Ah but Arnold you know I personally am not ultra reliable on any but one will always be your best provider, and one must never do anything to stop that, now that would be crazy !

OK, they may not in practice dictate terms that much, but what if one day they decided that you had to do X to continue to be listed and for some reason you either couldn't do X or weren't prepared to do X? You would then have nothing to fall back on. Again, I accept that it's probably unlikely that they would do something like that in the forseeable future.

Hyperthetical and really one could scare the pants off each other with what ifs. One should worry more about feeding the good providers and carry on as normal with the4 others and hope that all remains the same, no point in panicking just yet Mr Mannering !

On the other hand, what if they enforced that rule (guideline?) that someone spoke about earlier of not taking any place that was in a village of more than 1500 people? It's possible that you could start off OK in a village of 1000 and find yourself thrown out when it reached 1501. I just give that as a possible example and perhaps they don't worry about villages growing like that.

No fear for me then, we are in a commune of two houses and eight more across the field, 400 metres away!

The other risk is external: what if, for some reason, their system stops working? For instance, what if the French start using the internet to book their holidays? GdF may have a monopoly (by and large) with French gites/B&Bs in guides but that's not the case online. If that happened, you could find that the bookings from GdF dropped suddenly.

You are off again Arnold, chill out, we have a contingency plan anyway, it's plan B .....

We sell ......

Actually, I think that's perhaps the biggest single risk that they face: we've noticed that the younger French DO use the internet and that's probably one of the things that has allowed the B&B market to grow outside the GdF system.

We do get lots of bookings through the G de Fr website already, so that will grow as well, in line with the way the market grows. The 35 region of G de Fr is one of the strongest in the whole of France (no nothing to do with me either!) but yes, the internet has provided us with the obvious world wide web and reservations literally come from right over the other side of the world.

I think you need to look on a dependency on a single supplier of guests (or anything else) as a potential risk and seek to reduce that dependency. You just can't rely on something like the GdF system working for you forever (and I know that you don't).

As you say Arnold we don't but it happens that way and the future for the moment, still  looks OK but I would be a fool to think it might last forever, for a start, we hope to be out of the game within 2 years or so, possibly longer anyway.

[Russethouse]

Isn't Arnold just trying to say that it doesn't pay to have all your eggs in one basket ?

[Miki]

Yes, he is but in this line of business, if you want business, you advertise in as many places as possible anyway and whoever comes up with the goods, so to speak, does so. You cannot buck the top supplier and if you are dealing with all the advertisers that you know are the best that you can utilise for B&B, then you are already doing all you can and not putting ones eggs all in ones basket and one of those, will invariably give you  the majority of bookings.

To start making plans, in a just in case scenario, is not a player, we are with all the places that can help us, so if one goes down the others may well step in, we do not keep a tight record of who comes from where but years of experience lets you know who came from where approx, plus many will tell you !

It is a fact, that if we left G de F, we would lose custom and no amount of extra publicity would pull it back to the same figures. We know that, we have friends with houses just as nice but  as they don't want the amount of trade we have, do not want to join G de Fr and they take nothing like the amount we do. I could repeat that story for many other B&B's around here, inc good friends on the other side of Dinan, who cannot go with G de Fr for various reasons and they really do have a lovely place but with their B&B, they get nowhere near our figures.

 So it is not a simple case of putting all ones eggs in one basket but rather like the major superstores, you build on your biggest in store seller, not a good example but you must look after the products that feed you. Sometimes in business, the alternative is just not viable but possibly acceptable if you don't mind a drop in turnover.

 

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]Yes, he is but in this line of business, if you want business, you advertise in as many places as possible anyway and whoever comes up with the goods, so to speak, does so. You cannot buck the top sup...[/quote]

Hi again Miki,

You said:-

++++++++++

(continuing your quote)

dealing with all the advertisers that you know are the best that you can utilise for B&B, then you are already doing all you can and not putting ones eggs all in ones basket and one of those, will invariably give you the majority of bookings.

++++++++++++

Would that one could do so and remain within the GdF charter. The one real issue I have with them, and which made me nearly leave, is that one clause of the agreement that you sign, says that you promise not to be in any other guide without their prior written permission.

However, they have always known that I'm in Sawday, which doesn't seem to bother them, and in Guide Routard, which in fact they helped me to get into!! In neither case did I ask for or receive any permission in writing. However at one time, when BAB was trying to spread here, they wrote to us all saying that appearing in BAB was incompatible with being in GdF. As it happened, I'd already decided not to renew, because the returns for the cost were wholly inadequate. But I made a heck of a row, and struck out that para when we had to re-sign the charter.

I think that's an unreasonable restriction of my right to advertise where I wish, and probably against the European regulations regarding free competition. They know me for an awkward beggar, who wouldn't hesitate to take the matter higher, so probably don't feel inclined to push the issue. BUT the clause is there, and you have to sign it.

In your position, where most of your business comes through GdF, I'd hesitate long and hard about making a high profile fuss!! Which is rather the point others have been making it seems to me. In my position, my main reason for staying is to be as fully part of the system as I can, and also to be in a position to informing GdF about the way non French think - and sometimes to be a thorn in their sides when they're being amazingly "french" in their opacity!! They know perfectly well that I have no real need of them, financially, I've done my 10 years (in return for the development grant), so could leave tomorrow, so THEY don't feel too inclined to rock the boat either. But again 19 isn't 35, and we don't have anything _like_ your number of tourists, beds, members or anything, so you're in a less powerful position as an individual.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]I'm sure that he can't be as gullible as he appears on screen. Who these days would think that they would get away with basically buying a big house and starting to do B&B from a couple of bedroo...[/quote]

Hi Arnold,

And yet... that Indian restaurant was DOOMED to failure, maybe in Lyon or even in Avignon he might have got away with it, but in a tiny village. Insanity. So he persuades poor old Nippi whatsisname to stump up with thousands to help him and of course loses it. So then he sulks because Nippi is reluctant to let him screw himself totally.

I remember a line from a recent program. Nippi said, seeing him in a tent, "What have you come to? You had loads of money, a good job, everything, now you're living in a tent, and don't know how you're going to survive.".

So he's obviously got a history of bad decisions, which he insists on bullying his entourage to go along with, losing just about all his friends & girlfriends on the way.

As for the B&B. The FIRST thing you do, when contemplating that and before even buying the place is to look at the neighbours to see if there's anything that could prevent acceptance or be a major problem. THEN you go and talk to the local authorities (Mairie, GdF or whoever) to see what they expect you to provide in the way of amenities. Then you talk to someone who can help you decide as to whether you can provide those amenities etc in the space available, and at a price that will be viable in view of the putative income. (And not assume as did that englishman I talked about yesterday, that he would fill his 6 rooms 100% throughout the year, getting "the conference trade" outside the season. AND at 50% higher prices than anyone around him, for rooms that were minimally converted.)

I told you he made me froth at the mouth.

[Will]

[quote]Hi Arnold,And yet... that Indian restaurant was DOOMED to failure, maybe in Lyon or even in Avignon he might have got away with it, but in a tiny village. Insanity. So he persuades poor old Nippi what...[/quote]

TV documentaries are not kind to those who try and make a go of tourism-related businesses overseas - look at the way the people in 'Chaos at the Castle' were stitched up by the 'No Going Back' producers (Living France, March 2005).

But we need to make it quite clear that Nigel is far from the innocent abroad. In real life he is Nigel Farrell, a producer for independent TV company Tiger Aspect. Far from blowing all his money on abortive French projects, these are carefully-costed entertainment programmes, although Tiger Aspect lists them among their 'factual' output. Among Farrell's other productions are 'A Country Parish', 'A Seaside Parish' and 'The Village'. His long-suffering Indian friends and his masochistic girlfriends are all part of the cast.

I first came across Mr Farrell when he was a news reporter for BBC South and afterwards when he was making The Village, in Bentley, Hants. Far from being a bumbling idiot, he is a very astute media man who is not averse to making himself look daft for TV entertainment. In my view that's far better than making fools of unsuspecting people who have been lured to take part in the programme, admittedly in the name of vanity or self-publicity. And, as long as you don't take Nigel seriously, it's excellent entertainment, though I'd take issue with the 'factual' label given to his programmes by the production company. That probably raises Ian's froth levels still further...

[Miki]

Would that one could do so and remain within the GdF charter. The one real issue I have with them, and which made me nearly leave, is that one clause of the agreement that you sign, says that you promise not to be in any other guide without their prior written permission.

All the other main guides or sites other than with G de Fr themselves have been granted permission from regional HQ, not just to me but to any others. Some websites we are with, minnows mainly, we have not bothered to do so. I am not sure if you have received directive from Paris yet, but there is a Samoan Island email with an almost identical internet addresss as G de FR and this is making them most irate as members have been joining.

With B&B France (Thomas Cook guide) we initially signed a 4 year contract, some while ago now and had some mini rows with G de Fr at first and said we would wait for the Strasbourg ruling, which in the first instance came back asking G de Fr to take a more mature outlook on it. Their only grievance was that gradings were done differently so people with both would have a conflict of rankings !! For a company so large, they try and over protect what really does not need protecting. Anyway the latest news is that there is no news from Strasbourg as to any ruling !! So stand by your beds then... and we carry on but B&B France is not that great a from of publicity but we do get nice long stays from Italians through the guide book in Italy !

BUT the clause is there, and you have to sign it.

As I said I am fully aware of the rules and have been for many years but the charter is given wide berth by many and is so out of touch as to be one of the first things that should get the chop. I always ask but can understand why many ignore such an antiquated ruling. In the days of the internet, one must now always keep up with trends and G de Fr themselves, especially in the 35 make full use of the net. The last thing our HQ wants is for their members to fall behind other non members and see members leave because they are not allowed to utilise other resources to help their business continue to stride forward. Or as our secretary always says "plus dynamique et plus vibrant, les jeunes de 35 G de Fr" !

In your position, where most of your business comes through GdF, I'd hesitate long and hard about making a high profile fuss!!

I have read and re-read that Ian and sorry, can you explain that bit again please, thanks.

 

[Miki]

As Will says or I am sure what he means is, you cannot take this series or any of Nigels series on France as serious.

He has driven a bus through all the regulations and none of these have been serious attempts at anything more than payments from Ch 4 for producing programmes about France.

At this moment as well as for a few years before, France sells, that's a simple fact, to dissect his programmes is to be naive to thinking that Nigel is honestly trying to make himself a lifestyle in France. It is pure balderdash and you are witnessing a clever mind at work, he is making money whilst having some people believe he is actually trying to get a life in France to work.

The script is rwritten and an order followed just as in all documentaries, does one really believe he and Nippy only argue when the camera comes in view ?  Picture then practising the next scene and looking through the script and then the words "Action" and the clipper board bashing down "Act 4 scene Nigel & Nippy" that is how this is made. No fly on the wall just a god yarn and some well written b**sh**..........nothing wrong with that but to believe it is............well unbelievable I'm afraid.

It is false, utterly unreal and no intentions of being real but Nigel Farrell knows what sells and is doing it well. Reality.......well if Mr T walked in a scene I would not be at all surprised, it is complete and utter fiction and if anyone thinks otherwise, then Hopalong Cassidy was real as well... hi ho silver now who was that..........................

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]TV documentaries are not kind to those who try and make a go of tourism-related businesses overseas - look at the way the people in 'Chaos at the Castle' were stitched up by the 'No Going Back' produc...[/quote]

Hi again Will,

You said:-

But we need to make it quite clear that Nigel is far from the innocent abroad. In real life he is Nigel Farrell, a producer for independent TV company Tiger Aspect.

==============

AHA!! I didn't know that, and it reveals all.

As you said, it raises my froth level even more. I HATE being made a mug of.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]As Will says or I am sure what he means is, you cannot take this series or any of Nigels series on France as serious. He has driven a bus through all the regulations and none of these have been serio...[/quote]

Oops, sorry, I replied to the wrong message. Please ignore the quote above, I've said my say to Will on this topic.

Hi Miki,

You said :-

"In your position, where most of your business comes through GdF, I'd hesitate long and hard about making a high profile fuss!! "

I have read and re-read that Ian and sorry, can you explain that bit again please, thanks.

Sure, sorry. In my position, with only about 11% of my business coming in through GdF, and especially having "paid off" my grant, they know that they can't really push me around too much, I'll make a mega fuss and then if need be, leave.

However you've said that most of your business comes from GdF, so you might find it more awkward if they said to you, as they did to quite a few of our B&B owners, "Membership with BAB is incompatible with being part of GdF. You must decide. If you don't leave them you will have to leave us. And if you do, you will have to return your grants in their entirety." Yes, Miki, that's what they said and I presumed - it would seem wrongly - that they would be carrying ou the same policy France wide.

We agree 100% it would seem in the absurdity of that charter. Actually, much of it isn't bad, but it it quite obvious that it is an attempt to impose all sorts of things that have properly nothing to do with GdF. They justfy their position by saying that it's not a simple agent of publicity like other guides, but rather a movement, to whose ethos you must adhere. As you said in a different context - B***s**t. :-))

But it IS worth pointing out that anyone seeking to join GdF WILL have that agreement to sign, and if the granting of a fair chunk of money is dependent upon it, may well feel constrained. And they ought equally to know that not _all_ of the local committees are as easy going over things as 35. 24 for example didn't publish ANY member's home phone number in the local guide, thus forcing all lettings to go through the office (at 16%). I go regularly to Bergerac for wine, and was truly shocked when a proprietor showed me the guide. Mind you, there almost isn't one GdF member round Sarlat any more, so perhaps the high-handed local director caught a well deserved cold.

[Miki]

But it IS worth pointing out that anyone seeking to join GdF WILL have that agreement to sign, and if the granting of a fair chunk of money is dependent upon it, may well feel constrained. And they ought equally to know that not _all_ of the local committees are as easy going over things as 35. 24 for example didn't publish ANY member's home phone number in the local guide, thus forcing all lettings to go through the office (at 16%). I go regularly to Bergerac for wine, and was truly shocked when a proprietor showed me the guide. Mind you, there almost isn't one GdF member round Sarlat any more, so perhaps the high-handed local director caught a well deserved cold.

Thanks Ian,

Yes I see what you meant. We did have early problems with G de Fr but of course like all had to sign the charter. We would not intentionally push ourselves in to a corner, cutting our nose off to spite our faces is not part of our overall strategy. We have the ears of one or two of the bods and we get by, so to speak.

We were in the Dordogne when all those enquiries had to go through the G de Fr bookings regional system and refused to have anything to do with that, sensibility finally won through there I guess. This season (and the last I believe) the patrons run their own bookings now with private contact numbers, well at least in the National gide book. Can't speak for regional as of course we only get copies of the national and our own regional guide books. I have always been surprised by just how few G de Fr there are actually in the Dordogne and as you say, nothing actually directly in Sarlat but the size of the town might prohibit that ? through there are some in the surrounding villages of course.

[mascamps.com]

I wouldn't rely on any rulings coming out of Europe and striking out seemingly unfair terms of the GdF contract. By and large the European legislation is aimed at protecting consumers whereas businesses are supposed to be able to look after themselves and can therefore sign up to anything (more or less). B&Bs would come under the heading of "businesses" and therefore probably couldn't use the consumer protection legislation.

Re my point of "eggs in the one basket", I do appreciate Miki's point that there is bound to be one advertising channel that produces more bookings than the others. However, I think that when that one outfit, whoever they are, gets to have more than 30% or so of your bookings, you should really try to develop your other sources of business. For me that "one" was RyanAir last year. I'm quite happy to take the money and wouldn't want to be doing anything to mess it up but for me it is just too risky to just allow their percentage of my total income to creep up to 50% and beyond so I started growing other sources. Not easy by any means but, by and large, I've been able to maintain my 3 way split of phone/booking system/website.

Hadn't thought that there would be differences in the regions of GdF like that. It highlights to me even more the danger that "something" could go wrong if you rely totally on them. I know that Miki doesn't and makes a point of maintaining other sources of bookings but others out there may not be savvy enough to keep other advertising going if/when they get to the point of nearly 100% of bookings coming via GdF.

All being well, I'll be in that Italian guide myself Miki. Sounds like it could be very profitable for me as we already get a fair number of Italians but haven't really been able to reach that market very well up to now.

This is getting to be as popular a thread as the "Marketing Proposal" one!

 

Arnold

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]But it IS worth pointing out that anyone seeking to join GdF WILL have that agreement to sign, and if the granting of a fair chunk of money is dependent upon it, may well feel constrained. And they ou...[/quote]

Hi again Miki,

You said

>cutting off our noses to spite our faces is not part of our overall strategy. We have the ears of one or two of the bods and we get by, so to speak.

So, as usual in France, rules are applied with discretion, in effect!! I don't think that's such a bad thing, even if it can surprise or even shock newcomers.

Then you said:-

>We were in the Dordogne when all those enquiries had to go through the G de Fr bookings regional system and refused to have anything to do with that,

Quite right too, but then you're "coriace" Brits (guessing) rather than farmers who come from 400 years of peasant stock and are used to being pushed around by those in authority.

and then

>> sense finally won through there I guess. This season (and the last I believe) the patrons run their own bookings now with private contact numbers, well at least in the National gide book.

I suspect that the numbers of people leaving had more to do with it!! I did a little exercise, comparing the number of people in the area over a few years' period. A LOT left, and I think that persuaded the local "antenne" that their policy was not working too well. You're right about the national guide, though I'll have to go and have a look at the local guide when next I go that way.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]I wouldn't rely on any rulings coming out of Europe and striking out seemingly unfair terms of the GdF contract. By and large the European legislation is aimed at protecting consumers whereas business...[/quote]

Hi Arnold,

I agree. But I suspect that the threat of bad publicity for GdF at a time when they're feeling pretty vulnerable faced with the growth of Clévacances, might be a potent stick.

Then you said

>Hadn't thought that there would be differences in the regions of GdF like that. It highlights to me even more the danger that "something" could go wrong if you rely totally on them.

I have found that many, many aspects of life in France, while theoretically subject to nation-wide uniform legislation, are in fact interpreted in VERY widely disparate ways from region to region and from department to department. It is a swing of the pendulum, IMO from the hugely centrist way of doing things that de Gaulle wanted to change. Whereas at one time one knew that a child in the 3ième at a lycée in Rennes would be studying exactly the same thing at 11 am on the fourth Wednesday of February, as a child in a lycée in Marseille. Nowadays decentralisation has possibly gone too far, with the "service des étrangers" being open and welcoming in one prefecture, and bloody minded and xenophobic in another. Mid you, their attitude _might_ just be conditioned by their experiences! So I'm not _that_surprised that the interpretation of the GdF rules in Isle et Vilaine bears little relationship to that practiced here in the Correze, or in our neighbouring Dordogne.

I know that Miki doesn't and makes a point of maintaining other sources of bookings but others out there may not be savvy enough to keep other advertising going if/when they get to the point of nearly 100% of bookings coming via GdF.

You know, when we first started out, we decided NOT to do anything to attract the british, for various silly and complicated reasons. So the _only_ guide we were in was GdF. In our first year, 1/3 of our business came from the guide book, 1/3 from colleagues, who supported us wonderfully, and 1/3 from the roadside signs we put up.

I guess the proportion of GdF increased slightly the next year, as we ceased being shown as "en cours de classement" and became 3 épis. However at no time has any single guide been much more than 35%. I think Miki is right, however in keeping very cool about this. What happens happens. The accident whereby one guy phones for two rooms for the big changeover around Aug 1st. from say GdF, and then 10 minutes later someone else from the Guide Routard phones for the same weekend also for two rooms (we have three in all) can make quite a difference when multiplied by the same sort of thing over the season. When a customer calls for a room and we don't have any, I try to find them room elsewhere, and therefore often discover what guide they're using, but I don't keep a database of _non_ lets.

That said, I always advise my colleagues to spread the net as widely as possible.

[mascamps.com]

Ian,

My thinking was that our marketing was bound to be better in english than it was in other languages so, like you, didn't (and don't) really try to get a whole lot of Brits specifically but, obviously we get more than our local equivalents simply because our marketing in english is better than theirs. In practice, last year we ended up with 29% British, 36% French, about 7% a piece from Spain and Ireland and the other 20% being a mixed bag. Which, going from my own arguments earlier, means that I should be trying to get more non-French...

 

Arnold

 

[CJJL<HR>Si jeunesse savait! Si vieillesse pouvait...]

I went to my local Tourist Office last spring and asked if they would display some cards for my newly started meublé de vacances.

They said NO as they could only recommend or pass on any enquiry they received to a Clévacances registered meublé, as this was the rule for all Tourist Offices in France. I should get them to inspect and then register once I had made whatever changes they required...

The person in charge of the Tourist Office offered to visit the meublé to give me a few pointers.

On arrival, he commented on the fact the stairs to the house were used for both the meublé and my side of the house. Bad point... Could I build another set of stairs as they (CV) prefered independant entry. (The 2 doors are about 20m apart on a long 30m balcony!)

Once inside the house, he said that having the WC within the bathroom was a No-No for CV, but would be acceptable for GDF! Could I build a partition to make the WC independant? (the bathroom size is over 12 sq m with 2 windows).

Then he said the registration fee for CV was equivalent to 1 week of the highest rate of that year. When I asked him how many weeks had been booked for his CV registered meublés in the area so far, he said 4... for all 17 meublés!!!!

I had already booked 8 weeks without them, so I wished him luck and departed!

In the end I made a contribution to the running cost of the Tourist Office, (staffed by volunteers here), and my cards were displayed last year.

I also made an application to the Préfecture for registration: I was told there was only 1 man to cover the whole department, so he would come in 2005 as he had already been in my area in 2004!

I am still waiting for his visit!

[mascamps.com]

It certainly isn't the rule across France. Our tourist office will take our stuff no problem and we're on their list (more important really 'cos I'm too stingy to print loads of cards). In practice, we have received less than a half dozen enquiries from them in the past year.

Rather than plonk cards at the tourist office, what we did was put some at a couple of the local attractions and we've had a few clients from that.

What you need to remember on the brochure front is the 1% rule of thumb of marketing: on average you need to dish out 100 brochures to get one client. So be VERY careful with the cost of those brochures. One of our local competitors goes in for the brochures big time and had six thousand printed (cost: about 800€). Going by the 1% return, he will probably only get 60 clients ie each one is costing him about 13€ of brochures (and that's not even counting the cost of distributing them!).

 

Arnold