Do we really need a fire alarm

[sam in france]

Hi my wife and i have now set up our ski chalet, we have 5 rooms and are doing half board during the ski season and plan to do b and b during the summer

Our problem is that when getting our drinks licence from the maire, they made an appointment for us to be inspected, well about six weeks later a fireman, policeman, another person from another department and the mayor turned up and inspected the chalet

We were picked up on 3 things, 2 we have no problems with and will sort out, but they said we needed to fit a fire alarm, So the question is, is this correct, from all the research i have done i believed there were no regulations for our size chalet, by the way we have smoke detectors in all the rooms

I would appreciate some advice with regards to this

Thank you for any advice given

Sam

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Boiling a frog]

No you dont need a fire alarm

A man down the pub said so and I prefer to believe him than the so called expert police officer/fireofficer etc who are probably just trying to make things difficult for you and dont know the rules and regs like the experts on this forum or in the pub

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]Hi my wife and i have now set up our ski chalet, we have 5 rooms and are doing half board during the ski season and plan to do b and b during the summer Our problem is that when getting our drinks li...[/quote]

Hi Sam,

Gites de France don't require any kind of fire alarm OR smoke alarm, certainly not in this area. I did install a smoke alarm in the top of the stairwell, and when I mentioned it to the GdF people, they looked completely blank! However, I'm not clear in my mind what your various "gros bonnets" thught a fire alarm could do that a smoke alarm couldn't or what the difference was supposed to be. Did you point your smoke alarms out to them?

Also, are you running the chalet as a principal business? I think that if they feel you're running it as your main source of income, you come under "professional" rules, similar to that of a hotel. And these rules will require emergency lighting, and possibly fire doors.

What did the mayor say about this when you went to see him before starting?

[sam in france]

Hi ian

Yes this is our principal business, but what difference does that make

We didn't see the mayor before setting up but we did a lot of research which indicated that with 5 rooms or less there were no regulations, i hope that they have got their facts wrong, because i dont want to go down the road of having a fire alarm fited, by the way they showed no interest in the doors

Regards

Sam

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]Hi ian Yes this is our principal business, but what difference does that make We didn't see the mayor before setting up but we did a lot of research which indicated that with 5 rooms or less there w...[/quote]

Hi Sam,

I thought I said, sorry. When you set up a B&B as your main livelihood, you're deemed to be a professional. So therefore you have to behave as one. That implies fulfilling professional standards as any other hotel.

The reason I asked you what the mayor had said, is that it is my experience that not going to see him _before_ you start on a major project is the simplest way of creating problems for yourself down the road. So in fact you did a lot of research everywhere except the one place you needed to do it - the Mairie.

As you've discovered. However, be grateful that you haven't experienced the problems some (french) hotelier friends of ours did. After refurbishing the dining rooms - using a qualified architect, they had to undrgo a routine inspection by EDF, Sapeurs & Pompier & the Gendarmes, at the end of which they were told the absolutely HAD to modernise the electrical system. At a cost of some €16000.

Their architect hadn't been aware of the latest changes in regs it seems.

By the way, as far as the authorities are concerned, what is the difference between smoke alarms in the rooms and a fire alarm?

[Miki]

I thought I said, sorry. When you set up a B&B as your main livelihood, you're deemed to be a professional. So therefore you have to behave as one. That implies fulfilling professional standards as any other hotel.

Sorry Ian, I can't go with this one. Just because you say it will be your main income, which you do not have to tell the Mairie or pompiers anyway, this does not make the legal rules change. This is obviously a 5 room B&B and as such will come under the rules of Bed and Breakfast, regardless of whether it is the main income or not. If the people wish to register at the C de Com, the rules of B&B will still apply.

People will often go and register, purely to get health cover etc. They are registering as a B&B and NOT as a hotel. Same thing applies in the case of table d'hôtes, this, if a regular year round trade, will also need to be registered but it still does not put it in to the Hotel professional mould and regulations, or of course, no one would do it. It is your kitchen that is used NOT a Hotel kitchen and with it, all the many regulations.

Now we have differing opinions here and as is always going to be the case, you can go and ask at 100 Ch de Com and come out with at least 5 differing responses. The answer is to not tell everything to too many people. That is not acting illegally but sensibly. All over France are people running B&B as a sole income and I can guarantee that probably most of them are not registered, yet it is their sole income. Why ? Well bacause that's how it was and, until anyone tells them differently, that is how it will stay.

We for instance, pay a huge annual amount in CRDS and CSG, we know of no one else doing B&B who pays this, yet our tax office insist it is correct, do you or does anyone else know anyone with a B&B, who also pays these taxes ?


As you've discovered. However, be grateful that you haven't experienced the problems some (french) hotelier friends of ours did. After refurbishing the dining rooms - using a qualified architect, they had to undrgo a routine inspection by EDF, Sapeurs & Pompier & the Gendarmes, at the end of which they were told the absolutely HAD to modernise the electrical system. At a cost of some €16000.

Ian, I could offer you horror stories galore about some friends who bought a hotel and extensively renovated it, in the Pas de Calais. They speak fluent French and fought their corner magnificently. Winning case after case against the Maire, the Pompiers, sanitation and others. Half of the rules are made up as "jobs for the boys, keep it in the family, so to speak affairs" 

One of the worst cases, was that the authorities wanted to make them change the carpets at huge expense, as they were not NF ! After 6 months of proving that the Belgian carpet they were using was the exact carpet, as one in their local shop with NF. The pompiers tried to deny this in court, wherein a representative of the Belgian manufacturer showed that many of the NF carpets in France were indeed from their manufacturing factories in Belgium. The case was of course won and red faces once again from the officials.

It is diabolical how they try to make rules to suit their purpose and do you know the worst thing in all this ? they actually don't know the rules half the time and as anyone with experience here in France knows, no French person will EVER admit they do not know the answer, and that is often the problem !

By the way, as far as the authorities are concerned, what is the difference between smoke alarms in the rooms and a fire alarm?

We have all in one smoke/fire alarms. For the pompiers, the fire alarm, is also required to be wired up to emergency lighting on each floor and above exit doors and lead you to the exit from the building. It has to sound for 15 minutes and not be able to be turned off before. The previous owners had it all installed as the house was extended  to a second floor. It wasn't required, they were just badly advised, isn't that always the case.

 

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]I thought I said, sorry. When you set up a B&B as your main livelihood, you're deemed to be a professional. So therefore you have to behave as one. That implies fulfilling professional standards a...[/quote]

Hi Miki

(Can you email me about how you manage to get quotes in those nice blue italics in the middle of the text please).

Well!! I'm amazed. Not that lots of people use B&B's as their principle income without declaring it, but that it's not considered to be the equivalent to professional use. That's certainly the line taken by GdF here. I'll not argue with you, for the very reasons you evoke.

I also agree with you about the inability of french officials to come up with the ultra simple, "I don't know, I'll find out." all too often. We're lucky in that several of those we've come into contact with HAVE been prepared to do just that, and so I'd not regarded it as the norm, merely far too common.

I see it as part and parcel of the relatonship between authority and the people. I'd say that on the whole the french public are amazingly accepting of a type of behaviour of those in authority that in the UK would be considered high handed and utterly reprehensible. But we live HERE, and have to live WITH the authorities, so kicking against them is pretty counterproductive. The worst thing you can do is to win! The fonctionnaires will NEVER forgive you for it. I hope that your acquaintances have managed to settle down in amity with the local administration.

I don't agree with you at all about informing the Mairie about your plans. My experience (and that of all those round here) is that IF you take the trouble to go to talk to the local Maire (in a small commune) and tell him/her what you're thinking of doing and ask for his advice _before_ you do it, s/he will bend over backwards to help and to smooth the path for you. However, I can imagine that there are areas where foreigners - (I'm thinking of British ones) are omni-present and insular, and that this is strongly resented, to the extent of punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty.

[Miki]

I see it as part and parcel of the relatonship between authority and the people. I'd say that on the whole the french public are amazingly accepting of a type of behaviour of those in authority that in the UK would be considered high handed and utterly reprehensible.

You can say that again Ian !

I have taken a long time to copy their acts of etiquette, even though the air can be thick with frustration and anger, whilst the person on the other side of the desk, has that perma grin on their face whilst lying through their teeth and you being English want to scream but I have learned to play their game and I must say, I think I am getting better than they are, which seems to frustrate them !!

But we live HERE, and have to live WITH the authorities, so kicking against them is pretty counterproductive. The worst thing you can do is to win! The fonctionnaires will NEVER forgive you for it. I hope that your acquaintances have managed to settle down in amity with the local administration.

Ah but always end up with saying, "Thank you without all your wonderful help I would not have been able to sort all this out" Lying through the teeth is the trick. Our friends Maire was booted (weell voted out) out a couple of years later and the new Mayor was great from day one. The police even now, still like to cruise past to ensure no after hours drinking are going on (well not without them that is !!)

I don't agree with you at all about informing the Mairie about your plans.

No sorry if you mistook that, I always tell people to go to their Mairie (I am sure regulars on here will back that up), if it was the bit where I said be careful about telling too much to too many folks, the Maire was certainly not one of them. You take the micky with the Maire at your peril.

However, I can imagine that there are areas where foreigners - (I'm thinking of British ones) are omni-present and insular, and that this is strongly resented, to the extent of punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty.

I agree

pm sent relating to italics etc

 

[mascamps.com]

Sam,

We're at the opposite extreme from yourself. A couple of police came to drop in the "invitation" to come to see them re the transfer of the drinks license but didn't venture further than the front door. Thanks to our notary losing the relevant document we had even been flogging boxes of assorted alchol for almost a year before they called round but that didn't seem to really bother anybody, in spite of you supposedly needing to stop selling for two weeks.

To be quite honest, we expecting a continual stream of inspectors as you seem to have had but, so far, they've not turned up yet.

Miki: NF=made in France? If so, I'd have been employing my usual tactic of quoting a few European laws to them. Actually, in general I find that being able to quote a specific law to assorted French bureaucrats works wonders in removing problems. I suspect it would work equally well if you just made up the law you were quoting so long as it sounded passably authentic.

 

Arnold