B&B or Hotel? What's in a name?

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi,

I'm posting this new topic following a discussion between Arnold, Miki and myself about the factors that define a place as a B&B as opposed to a small family run hotel.

I'm going to throw out some ideas, in the hopes that it will stimulate others to contradict, expand, limit and help produce a definition that we can all agree on, more or less.

Given that we're in France, and that Gites de France are more or less the oldest organisation covering Chambres d'Hôtes here, it seems to me sensible to look to their "charte" - guidelines, to see what they say. For brevity I shall refer to Chambres d'Hôtes as B&Bs, but without any implication that British or American definitions apply.

According to their definition, therefore, a B&B consists of a private house in which the owners are resident, and in which they make available up to 6 rooms for people to stay in, fully provided with bed and bath linen. I quote from my free translation of of their guidelines.

" A typical bed & breakfast house is of high quality, preferably with distinct local character. Houses in estates, and without gardens or outside space are specifically excluded from the scheme.

The owner will contribute to a successful stay by his hospitality and availability, and will do his best to help his guests discover the delights of his area. Cafés, hotels and restaurants cannot also run bed & breakfast homes. The rooms cannot be situated above a shop or business unless it is such that it be compatible with bed & breakfast, and does not create annoyance. (eg. from noise, smell, antisocial hours etc.)

" A bed & breakfast house will have a maximum of 6 rooms with a maximum capacity of 15 guests. Under no circumstances may an owner let extra rooms even if these are not within the scheme.

" Rooms will most often be located in the owner's home. However, they may be in an annexe situated in the immediate proximity. In this latter case, it is desirable to provide a sitting room in the annexe itself. Breakfast, which is a special opportunity for contact between owners and holidaymakers should be served by the owners themselves in a special breakfast room, rather than in the bedrooms. The meal should be generous. A regional character and home made products will be particularly welcome."

For a B&B to be acceptable to GdF (though I don't think that necessarily means that the definition wouldn't apply outside this limit of acceptability), it should be rural, not being situated in a town of more than about 1500 inhabitants. Breakfast MUST be included in the price of the accommodation and the proprietors should be present during meals, which should be taken at a single (family) table. "

I think that's a good start. Can we now try to work out what would determine that a place with 6 rooms can't be a B&B and falls into the category of a hotel or Guest House.

[Will]

As you say, Ian, we are in France, so perhaps we should rephrase the question and look at the difference between a hotel (though that is a highly ambiguous term here) and Chambres d'Hôtes. When one uses the term B&B here I tend to think of the chain of budget hotels that goes under that name. Or the sort of English-run establishment that makes no concessions to its French location or possible French clientele of course

I totally agree that CdH (sorry about the abbreviation) is traditionally a room or rooms available in a private house. The archetypal Gites de France establishment is (or perhaps it would be better to say was) something run by Madame Agriculteur to bring in a few extra sous to supplement the milk quota or whatever. As such a CdH is an amateur, part-time business - which doesn't necessarily mean that it's run in an amateur or lackadaisical fashion. A hotel, however, is a professional business in its own right, with different aims and different priorities.

I quite accept that many CdH have become businesses rather than just an add-on to something else, particularly those run by non-French owners. At the same time, they try to preserve the informal, personal type of service that distinguishes them from a hotel. Differentiating between these and a proper, family-run hotel (rather than one of a hotel chain) is very difficult. So the number of rooms seems to be the dividing line - more than 6 people, and GdF, think of it as a hotel.

Maybe a CdH is, as the GdF quote suggests, typically in the countryside or a small village, while a hotel is a bit more urban? But then other terms like auberge enter the discussion, or is this a French equivalent of Guest House? (somehow I think not)...

Over to you, fellow CdH people.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Will,

As you say, Ian, we are in France, so perhaps we should rephrase the question and look at the difference between a hotel (though that is a highly ambiguous term here) and Chambres d'Hôtes.

I quite take your point that perhaps my use of an english abbreviation is less than helpful in that it tends to make us refer mentally to our own views of B&B à l'anglaise. OK, let's call 'em CdH.

I totally agree that CdH (sorry about the abbreviation) is traditionally a room or rooms available in a private house.

Yup, I think that's a sine qua non.

The archetypal Gites de France establishment is (or perhaps it would be better to say was) something run by Madame Agriculteur to bring in a few extra sous to supplement the milk quota or whatever.

Exactly, and the system was elaborated to allow farmers/peasants in incipient financial difficulty to make ends meet. There are still some in the GdF movement who feel that this is the essence of CdH, and that there's no place for the citadin, or non farmer within the movement. fortunately for me, the rules don't say that. Mind you, if GdF does seek to limit itself in that way, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot, as more and more people without the traditional agricultural background are buying houses in which they seek to supplement their income by renting out a few rooms.

As such a CdH is an amateur, part-time business - which doesn't necessarily mean that it's run in an amateur or lackadaisical fashion.

Agreed. I have had some animated discussions over what is meant by "vous êtes des professionnels du Tourisme". What GdF mean by that is not that we ARE professionals, but that we should run our B&Bs in a thoroughly professional way which is of course completely different. I'm trying to work on GdF to persuade them to change their phraseology, which is not only confusing for owners but also risks sending completely the wrong message to the authorities.

A hotel, however, is a professional business in its own right, with different aims and different priorities.

Absolutely. And a completely different structure fiscally and from the point of view of the administration.

I quite accept that many CdH have become businesses rather than just an add-on to something else, particularly those run by non-French owners.

And I suspect that because CdH are treated so generously by le fisc, and the authorities generally, many people who are in FACT running small hotels, are trying to crowd in under the CdH umbrella, to the extent that it is getting dangerously catch-all.

Differentiating between these and a proper, family-run hotel (rather than one of a hotel chain) is very difficult. So the number of rooms seems to be the dividing line - more than 6 people, and GdF, think of it as a hotel.

GdF has recently been talking about CdH always being under the same roof as the owners' bedroom. I'm not sure that's the _right_ criterion, though it makes perfect sense in a way. What they're really trying to do, as far as I can see, is to produce a cutting line between those who are putting people up in their own home and those who are living in a hotel/guest house that they own and run. They slightly miss the target it seems to me, though I can but applaud their attempts to clarify and define.

Maybe a CdH is, as the GdF quote suggests, typically in the countryside or a small village, while a hotel is a bit more urban?

GdF exclude urban B&Bs as I said, though Clevacances doesn't.

But then other terms like auberge enter the discussion, or is this a French equivalent of Guest House? (somehow I think not)...

Larousse defines the modern meaning of "Auberge" as being (translating au pif) "a cosy and intimate restaurant or hotel-restaurant, usually in the country." There's a strong implication of it being relatively small, and a strong implication that the owners would live on the premises, I feel.

 

[sam in france]

Hi

I did the post earlier (do we really need a fire alarm) since then i have been trying to find information about the regulations for chambre d'hote, not yet succeeded

I came across this article, could i invite you to have a look it may assist you

www.frenchpropertylaw.co.uk/gitespdf

I have contacted this group for information about my problem

By the way as it happens the chalet is our home and we eat with our guests

Regards

Sam

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sam in france]

Hi

I just tried the link i suggested above, it dint work

so to find the article, type in www.frenchpropertylaw.co.uk

click on the news / articles box and about 3/4 of the way down on the right you will find the article gite ruraux, chambres dhote, tables dhote

Hope that works

Regards

sam

 

[BJSLIV]

 

www.frenchpropertylaw.co.uk/gitespdf

Should be

www.frenchpropertylaw.co.uk/gites.pdf

 

seems pretty comprehensive.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi BJSLV

(sorry, but you ddn't sign!)

you sent this link

http://www.frenchpropertylaw.co.uk/gites.pdf

I've downloaded it and will study it in due course and come back. Thanks very much indeed.

Thanks to Sally and Sam as well.

[sam in france]

Hi

Well i got a reply from the french property law group and they only seemed interested in setting up a meeting, at a price may i add of £235, they gave no indication as to whether the regulations say that my size chalet requires a fire alarm, i think it would be cheaper to fit an alarm, so i will not be going for a meeting, Can anybody tell me where i can find the regulations with regards to Chambres d'hote, i have trawled through the internet with no joy so far, they must be written down somewhere

Regards

Sam Edwards 

[mascamps.com]

Just catching up on this as we are somewhat swamped for Easter.

I think that the 6 rooms is misleading as an aspect of a definition of a CdH. There are two hotels locally who only have five rooms apiece, so why aren't they CdH's? At least one of them doesn't have a restaurant so to all intents and purposes it would seem to fit the bill as a CdH.

To my mind the critical thing is the personal attention that is given in a "CdH" but then you get that in family run hotels too. I was going to extend that to "personal attention given by the owner and his/her family" which also encompasses the small family run places but at least has the benefit of excluding hotels at the top end of the range with their standardised "personal" attention.

Even the "in the owners home" aspect is not totally distinguishing. The family live in every family run hotel that I know. OK, normally in an apartment in the hotel but, so what, it's their home. So, you extend the definition a little more and say that the owners' part of the "house" must make up, say, 50% or more of the CdH. But that won't work either because, in principle, you could have the owners bit amounting to a bedroom, living room, kitchen and bathroom and six B&B rooms ie more like 60% B&B, 40% owner (which is, coincidently, about our own ratio).

Breakfast with the owners? I've yet to stay in a B&B that does that. OK, most of the time my B&Bs were in the UK & Ireland but I don't believe for a minute that 100% of the CdH's in France do it either.

I was going to say that having staff was the distinguishing feature and I think that is one critical aspect of the difference. Once you acquire staff to do critical things like the cooking, serving and booking in people (ie the front-line things) I think you're talking Hotel. Whilst I see the 6 room limit as pretty academic, I just can't picture a professional chef in a B&B (yes, I know some of you guys are ex-professional chefs, but you're not doing it as a standalone job anymore). I could see a cleaner being employed to make up the rooms but not really a waitress.

I think that, perhaps, there might be point in the room count after which a place is definitely in "hotel country" but it's more because it's reached the size where staff are required than because it is 10, 20, 30 or 40 rooms. OK, 30 or 40 room places are hardly likely to "feel" like a B&B but that's because a lot of the jobs will be done by staff instead of the owner's family.

Incidently, y'all might have the chance to see us in action next January as we appear to be on the shortlist for yet another one of the moving to France programmes.

 

Arnold

 

[Will]

"Incidently, y'all might have the chance to see us in action next January as we appear to be on the shortlist for yet another one of the moving to France programmes."

Do make sure you read the March 2005 issue of Living France before letting a TV crew anywhere near your establishment

[Owens88]

A Hotel gives you a room with add-ons that are optional, but available. Varying degrees of opulence and availability are what generate the stars.

British Hotel, as above but High Prices (and stars) start at very basic standards

A CdHote gives you a room with breakfast and an option of a fixed menu evening meal, single sitting all at one fixed time. Booze with meal but not to be purchased separately.

Auberge / Inn -  Primarily an eatery with bedrooms ?

Hostels - rooms with no add-ons and nothing promised to be available ? Often some sharing of facilities?

British B&B - as hostel + breakfast + more costly ?

French B&B ?

Just my 2p, but what about ?

Chalet

Chalethotel? (not sure of spelling)

and then Gite ? We were told by the tourist office that our place is a gite so we tend to mix the terms gite /appartemente.

 

 

 

 

 

[mascamps.com]

Firstly, does some nice kind person have a copy of the relevant article in the March 2005 mag that they could mail me before I do something drastic like signing a contract? (LF ain't available in these farflung parts).

As the owner of one of these auberge thingy's, I've been wondering what they are defined as too. Having looked at a number of them, I suspect that in the distant past most have started life as some kind of restaurant type establishment which subsequently got into the accommodation business. However, these days you get all sorts of things running with the auberge/inn label. We've seen standalone restaurants (presumably they've junked the rooms for let), "proper" (ie 6 room) B&Bs, etc. right up to all-out hotels.

Hostels are interesting. It's true to say that the assumption is that the facilities are largely shared, dorm-style rooms, etc. However, advertising being what it is, these days if you look at hostel websites you get, in addition to "proper" hostels, B&Bs and hotels.

Then there are the aparthotels which are in essence really big gite complexes in a sense.

What gets me (hence, in part, the origin of this thread) is that GdF will allow you to have 6 B&B rooms PLUS 5 gites. Even taking a gite as a 2 bedroom place that would give you up to 16 rooms. Actually, a question just struck me: if you had a complex like that and registered with GdF, what's to stop you actually running the thing as 11 B&B rooms? OK, the gite "rooms" will have a kitchen but can you under GdF rules offer breakfast to your gite clients for instance?

Indeed, what makes a complex like that a B&B/gite complex and not an aparthotel? There's a place just like that down the road from us and I'd say it's very similar size to both the local hotels put together.

 

Arnold

 

[Will]

Arnold, a subscription to Living France enables you to get copies wherever you are in France, as long as the facteur visits. As long as LF doesn't object I'll e-mail you a copy of the pages (just for you - can't do this for everybody)

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi John,

You asked:-

Chalet

Chalethotel? (not sure of spelling)

Well, off the top of my head - and without the slightest idea whether there's any kind of official classification. I'd define a Chalet as being a wood frame type house - probably modern, in a mountainous area, let as a single unit. Pretty well a Gite, though in UK speak Chalets are mainly half board with packed lunches etc available, and staffed from the UK with Cordon Bleu staff. When we used Ski Chalets the girls were known as Supertramps from Supertravel and the Morgasms from John Morgan.

A chalethotel would be of similar construction but larger and run as an hotel. ie reception area, permanent day time reception, possibility of night entry, some kind of common area.

and then Gite ? We were told by the tourist office that our place is a gite so we tend to mix the terms gite /appartemente.

Well a gite is easier, although again it is beginning to be used and thought of as a generic expression in fact it is the term used by Gites de France to describe their "Meublés de Tourisme" which is the REAL generic term. That's slightly hair splitting and doesn't get the definition any further. A Meublé deTourisme is a house or an apartment (self contained part of a house) which is let out furnished. Sheets etc may or may not be provided and would in principle be hired, rather than within the cost. There will be proper cooking facilities and many will have dish washers, washing machines and so on. I THINK that it is now a Govt requirement that every Meublé de Tourisme has to be provided with a telephone (just in time for the almost universal use of portables, which renders their provision unnecessary). There is no fixed minimum letting period, but within GdF, which governs what happens in Gites proper, they are talking about weekend and midweek mini breaks nowadays. None of which has anything to do either with the topic of the forum, nor with the topic of the thread!!!

To come back on topic again (I'm teasing!!) you said:-

A Hotel gives you a room with add-ons that are optional, but available. Varying degrees of opulence and availability are what generate the stars.

I agree, in so far as you go, but that doesn't - to me - give any cutting edge distinction. Maybe we could explore the question of "added extras".

Auberge / Inn -  Primarily an eatery with bedrooms ?

Yup, I think that's quite useful as a start off. I don't think it would be possible to have an Auberge that didn't offer food.

Hostels - rooms with no add-ons and nothing promised to be available ? Often some sharing of facilities?

I don't know any in France (I'm refusing to go down the entrancing red herring of definitions outside France ) that aren't part of the Youth Hostel movement and perhaps the Y?CA. So I'd refer to those. Primarily for young people, with many rooms to be shared in singles. Rarely private facilities. Possible rudimentary cooking facilities. Cheap and cheerful.

French B&B ?

We sort of agreed here to drop the use of the expression B&B in a french context as it can cover anything from a Chambre d'Hôte to a chain of wretched hotels. Strictly, it ought to be a pretty exact equivalent to Chambre d'Hôte.

A CdHote gives you a room with breakfast and an option of a fixed menu evening meal, single sitting all at one fixed time. Booze with meal but not to be purchased separately.

By no MEANS all CdH give an evening meal option. However, for those that do, your definition is spot on, and GdF go further, and say that "guests are sharing the owners' evening meal" which implies that the owners eat too, and we all sit round the same table. I think that's quite an important issue, as it enables us to keep a gulf between the way WE operate and the modus operandi of any hotel I've ever been in.

Again, I'm not certain that it is compulsory to quote a price including breakfast, except within the GdF movement. Any Clévacances people know? my personal view is that it ought to be, but that proves nothing. In fact I think the "prestation de service" - what we provide - is pretty close between a hotel and a B&B. We both provide a room complete with bedding and towels. We both provide breakfast. I think there are some services hotels provide that we _shouldn't_ and I think there's an intimacy and closeness within a CdH that a hotel cannot reasonably aspire to.

As I've tried to emphasize - not very well, perhaps - is that I'm seeking to find the cutting edge distinctions. How to put this? Ermm .... if I go into a place, I know immediately what it is, whether it's a little hotel with only 6 rooms, or whether it is a CdH. So what exactly is it that makes me so sure?

British B&B

Not in our brief!

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi again Arnold,

Like you, I'm afraid I'm a bit sporadic in my reading here, because of our run up to Easter. However, you said:-

What gets me (hence, in part, the origin of this thread) is that GdF will allow you to have 6 B&B rooms PLUS 5 gites. Even taking a gite as a 2 bedroom place that would give you up to 16 rooms.

Yes, but they have to be run and organised completely differently. Guests in gites don't get breakfast, they don't use common facilities with other gite guests (except possibly swimming pool, and even then if I rented a gite with a pool and found I was sharing it with 4 other families and some rag-tag and bob-tail load of CdHers I'd be more than a trifle hacked off).

That said, I do agree that no one could say that a couple, running 5 gites and a B&B could be said to be anything other than professionals in the accommodation business and I - personally - would have difficulty in feeling that they ought to be considered as acceptable for GdF. However, I am not the guy making the rules, simply someone who has to try to work within them and help you understand what they are.

A hotel, as such, tends to be a single unit - even if it can have annexes. Each gite is - or should be - a self contained unit with its own parking space, sitting out area, and garden furniture, bbq etc. So with 5 gites, of whatever size, from 2 people to 10 or more, EACH would be self contained.

Chambres d'Hôte, on the other hand, are - or should be - run as being part of the owner's family space, more or less.

Actually, a question just struck me: if you had a complex like that and registered with GdF, what's to stop you actually running the thing as 11 B&B rooms? OK, the gite "rooms" will have a kitchen but can you under GdF rules offer breakfast to your gite clients for instance?

If I were to be called in to inspect such a complex (in the context of a complaint, or dispute between GdF management and owner), and I had any suspicion that was being done, they'd be straight out, without their feet touching the ground. There's nothing to stop a Gite owner dropping by to see their tenants and inviting them over for a cup of coffee, and possibly even to share breakfast one day. But it couldn't be part of the contract and certainly not done as a habit.

Actually there is a complex like that within our catchment area, that we were called in to inspect. It was perfectly obvious that the enormous dining room that filled the whole ground floor of the barn, was not just used to allow the CdH 5 room tenants to share a meal with the owners. In addition, they were packing in  far more beds in each room than is correct for a CdH, and there wre various other issues. They were told exactly what was and wasn't acceptable and warned that if they didn't respect the rules they'd be out. They didn't and they are. Again, my personal view is that the administration ought not to allow such a complex, unless it is considered to be a professional establishment, subject to the rules governing them. But I'm not running tourism in the Corrèze.

Indeed, what makes a complex like that a B&B/gite complex and not an aparthotel? There's a place just like that down the road from us and I'd say it's very similar size to both the local hotels put together.

This reply is pretty heavily off topic from here onwards, so if you're looking for some deep enlightenment, stop here!

Probably pull of some kind with the local administraton, or else the general reluctance of the administration to stick their noses in, unless there is a serious problem. Arnold, I hope you don't think I'm lecturing or teaching my granny to suck eggs, when I say this, but the relationship between the authorities and their "administrés" is entirely different in France and in the UK. You can never begin to understand the vagaries of French life until you really absorb this complex relationship of laissez faire and omnipresence.

Almost everything here is forbidden unless it's compulsory. And the rules that make it so are almost never applied rigorously. If somone in a commune is "good news" or at least considered to be by the local maire and corporation, then they can do almost anything. If they're considered to be difficult, then they will be watched like hawks and can get away with almost nothing. The difference between the two may be as petty and silly as the personal prejudices of one of the assistant mayors, or the fact that someone in the village was once pushed off the road by a Brit lorry driver 50 years ago. It's not fair, agreed, but there's naff all you can do about it.

 

[mascamps.com]

I suspect that there's a lot in what you say Ian about the goodwill of the local administration having a lot to do with what's deemed acceptable. In our own case, we gather that the existence of our establishment is regarded as a "good thing" by the mayor which probably has had a lot to do with us having no hassle in running something which I'm sure must be obviously on a grander scale than a CdH to the locals yet we've been able to keep flying under the CdH colours so to speak.

On the other hand, going by the comments that we've had, we still have the "B&B/CdH feeling", which neatly gets us back on topic: why?

Well, more to the point, how do we keep that feeling?

Is it simply down to us doing it ourselves and not having staff? If that's the case, then I'm sure that the 6 B&B, 5 gite places wouldn't feel like a CdH as I can't see them being able to manage without staff.

On the auberge front, I've seen some that now don't have "food for sale" other than breakfast. Presumably, at some stage they've been bought and the existing restaurant has been turned into a dining room within the CdH.

 

Arnold

PS Having looked at the photos on the LF article, I've decided that I gotta buy me a castle next time around! Already had a look at the listings and the prices aren't that bad either.

 

[Owens88]

OK. Being Brief.

Hotel should have restaurant with flexible eating times, even if only for breakfast. As you go up the stars there are also things about reception opening hours, restaurant/bar service hours , gyms, pools, concierge service etc.

ChDH is more intimate and has a lot less flexibility. Meals are at..heure x., drinks will be served at the hote's timings, but not bought by the guest when the guest wants it. Arrivals may not be welcomed outside civil hours, but then the hote may even come and find you/pick you up. (I know a very gracious hote near Beziers).

Not quite a killer differential but it might be a useful direction !

BTW

I think there are hostels at French beach and mountain resorts outside of the yha /ymca. We have a gite d'etape in our French village.

Cheers

[mascamps.com]

I'll buy the extra flexibility of a hotel, at least in principle and in limited areas. Specifically in respect of the restaurant/bar facility as I guess a true CdH wouldn't provide the kind of service that you'd see in a standalone restaurant/bar.

However, aside from the restaurant/bar flexibility, I think that most of the other things you mention are part & parcel of most CdH's. In my experience of being a guest of such things, the opening hours of the "reception" at a CdH are much more flexible than those of a hotel (excluding those with 24 hour reception), you certainly get pools, gyms and indeed a personal "concierge" service through the owners. Even the 24 hour reception business is flexible: we are prepared, reluctantly admittedly, to be there to open the doors at any time so long as we know in advance roughly when it needs to be.

I thought that the airport pickup was squarely a "hotel" thing but I guess a number of CdH's provide it.

One thing that's not been picked up on yet is the means of booking a CdH vs a hotel. Whereas in hotels you can generally have a guaranteed booking instantly, I've yet to see a CdH site that offers that facility although I don't see why it couldn't be offered. I think that's one big downer in booking a CdH vs booking a hotel. Yes, I know, you can ring up but it's not the same as being able to see that there's room and book it there and then.

 

Arnold

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi folks

While researching for Miki about another topic, I found a document, with a VERY long title, which is issued by the Ministry of this that and Tourism. Amongst the 70 pages of stuff covering what associations may or may not do, and so on and so forth, there's an interesting little section about CdH.

I quote

Ce sont des chambres chez l'habitant, dans sa résidence principale ou dans un bâtiment attenant : le service du petit-déjener est un complement obligatoire de la chambre d'hôte. Son prix est inclus dans la nuitée.

Ces Chambres avec des sanitaires communs ou particuliers, sont réparties en plusieurs catégories parallèles à celles de gîte.

Des critères de confort et d'équipements sont définis par l'association des Gîtes de france ou d'autres logotypes. Mais il ne s'agit pas d'un classement officiel.

La déclaration en mairie des hébergements non hôteliers est obligatoire dans les communes percevant la taxe de séjour. Cette dernier doit être versée au receveur municipal dans un delai de 15 jours suivant sa perception.

Derniere minute. (1995)

(waffle saying that all owners of main or secondary houses, of which all or part is let out for tourism must declare their activity to the Mairie)

=======================

Tables d'Hotes

Le nombre de convives est limité à 15 personnes au maximum hébergées en Chambres d'hôte en plus de la famille de l'exploitant. Cette forme de restauration doit respecter 3 principes.

1 seule menu par service

1 seule table et prise de repas en commun

ne pas dépasser la capacité d'accueil.

Si un de ces principes n'etait pas respecté, la table d'hôte deviendrait un restaurant.

Then later it says

Interdiction

plusieurs menus par service.

plusieurs tables

restauration sans hébergement

dépassement de la capacité d'accueil (15 convives au maximum).

====================

If anyone wants that translated, let me know.

So that gives some ideas as to what the thinking is of the powers that be, when it comes to defining a CdH, and what we may and may not do in respect of Table d'Hote.

[Miki]

Ian,

Like me, you would have known all that a long time ago.

It is all part of the GDF charter but I must say, it is worth putting on the forum for others to take note of.

Interesting about the taxe de séjour, we have paid it in two places and not been asked for it in another, as we were then the only "touristy thing" in the commune and the Maire simply said that we couldn't be expected to pay anything.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

[quote]Ian,Like me, you would have known all that a long time ago.It is all part of the GDF charter but I must say, it is worth putting on the forum for others to take note of.Interesting about the taxe de s...[/quote]

Hi Miki,

As you said, I knew nearly all that from GdF. My real reason for re-posting it, is that it is a document issued by the Ministry of Tourism, and therefore should be deemed to apply to all people who want to run a CdH in conformity with French Law, not just to join Gites de France.

As you'll have seen in comments here, some people have said that they would never stay in a place that didn't offer a choice of menus. Well that is specifically outlawed by this document. So these people have an entirely false expectation of what is meant by CdH here in France. And it's no good them talking about offering better service. It's forbidden, with the rider that offering a choice of menus, eating at several sittings and/or at separate tables, and allowing non residents to eat makes the activity into that of a classic restaurant, with all that this implies. So if we DO choose to act in this way, we are running a serious risk of angry hoteliers and restaurateurs denouncing us. We have an immensely privileged position, tax-wise and in terms of controls of all kinds, and I, for one, feel we have to play fair to justify it.

Actually, with all the limitations and problems involved in doing Table d'Hôte, I'm rather surprised anyone does it. If you compare the time spent in shopping, planning, cooking, accompanying and cleaning up afterwards, with that spent in just looking after guests, cleaning, breakfasts, chatting and welcoming in a plain vanilla CdH, and then compare the incomes, it's madness even to consider it! But, of course GdF like us to do it, and there's no doubt that it makes a big difference to the CdH turnover and hence to the profitability.

 

[mascamps.com]

I don't know that it's so much that people won't stay at places that only offer a single fixed menu but that if they are staying there they won't eat there (unless, of course, the menu happens to correspond to something that they've have chosen anyway).

I'd say that there's a long way to go before the restaurants would be that bothered. One thing that should worry them (but doesn't appear to) is that CdH's seem much more flexible most notably in offering vegetarian options if 'thother thread is anything to go by.

We would have severe problems in doing a single sitting as we get a lot of guests straight off the plane which arrives at 8pm getting them to us around 9pm. By which time, the inflexibility of the restaurants kicks in and they either eat with us or not at all. Ironically, for those guests, we do operate a more typical CdH type menu.

I don't know that there is a great difference in the average amount that a restaurant will get vs the table d'hote. From what I've heard, the most common menu ordered in restaurants is 10€ to 15€ which seems typical for TdH prices.

 

Arnold

 

[Miki]

[quote]Hi Miki, As you said, I knew nearly all that from GdF. My real reason for re-posting it, is that it is a document issued by the Ministry of Tourism, and therefore should be deemed to apply to all peo...[/quote]

I agree Ian, the TDH part is certainly for many people, the carrot to draw in more folks to stay in the CDH.

As far as profit is concerned, very little would come form the TDH part but naturally it does push up the overall turnover. We would much prefer evenings where between 10 and 15 ate, as of course, it is very worthwhile but that happens mostly in May, July and August

We do sell better wine, as well as giving ½ litre wine per couple with the meal but these days, more and more are happy with the house wine.

That is another point isn't it, with TDH and GDF, it is obligatory to offer coffee and wine within the fixed price. It is not though, for those who do TDH and not with GDF.Remember also NO lunches are allowed, again, that is to do with hotels.

Yes, we have to run strictly with the rules, or one day we may well fall foul of the hotelier and camping fraternity, who will no doubt push for much stricter rules on all us B&B's, if they see B&B's riding roughshod through the CDH regulations.

We will be raising our prices for the "repas du soir" next year, as this service can be quite tough on the owners, we feel it has to be worthwhile to make us cook for just two persons (or even on occasions, a solitary person). We feel any less than 20-22 euros per person, really makes it simply not worth doing, that is a personal opinion of course and I would not worry if others felt it worth doing for less.

Have you noticed just how few members actually do TDH, it appears to me, that in our region, the numbers are really down but I guess the sheer number of restos that abounds, the owners feel that they have no need to offer evening meals.

[Miki]

Arnold said ".....I don't know that there is a great difference in the average amount that a restaurant will get vs the table d'hote. From what I've heard, the most common menu ordered in restaurants is 10€ to 15€ which seems typical for TdH prices"

Not around here I'm afraid Arnold.

The average for clients favoured mid day prix fixe in the restos would probably be around 10-15€ but that would not tally with TDH as the average around here is more like 18€ and many are over 20€.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Miki,

I agree Ian, the TDH part is certainly for many people, the carrot to draw in more folks to stay in the CDH.

It certainly is for us - and to give us what I could call a competitive edge. Where we disagree with some who've written on this, is that I believe that we CAN compete while staying strictly within the rules.

We don't charge as much as you do, but then we're in a much poorer area. I charge slightly more than my colleagues (I was going to say competitors, but that's not as accurate a term, in view of our relationship with them) for an evening meal, but we give a meal that is far more sophisticated.

As far as profit is concerned, very little would come form the TDH part

Agreed. We reckon we just about eat for free when we just have two guests. With 4 or 6, things are easier. As I said earlier, however, my aim isn't to maximise my profit from food, it is to minimise the work!! In the high season, with people coming (and especially going) almost every day, we have a lot of work just to look after the rooms, welcome and do the gardening as well as our own housework. I did a quick calculation of the man hours spent on an "average" (high season 100% full) week, assuming we don't do one single meal. With about 6 room changes in the week (we're lucky in that our average length of stay is 2.5x the Correze wide average),  it works out at around 30 manhours. For that we get around  650 euros profit. Not too badly paid.

Now for the food calculation. Per meal with a full house, and planning on a VERY quickly prepared meal we work around 12 man hours (counting 5 hours each from 5pm when we start working to 10pm when the guests usually leave) including planning, shopping etc. At 6 paying customers at E17, per head, we get E102 gross. I guess we make perhaps E20 from that. Wretchedly paid! However, if I wanted to maximise my profits (without compromising the quality of what we do) I'd have to spend 50% more time planning, and shopping, but probably 3 times as long cooking. When I'm making lasagne al forno - which is one of our most profitable main courses - I spend about 5 hours cooking. Jacquie spends longer too, if we're seeking to maximise profit. My best guesstimate would be that we would work nearer 18 man hours. Our profit would rise to nearer E40. I simply don't find the increase worth the time spent. 9 hours each ON TOP of the time spent in running the houses etc, is a heck of a lot for people of our age (early 60s) and we aren't prepared to do it.

We do sell better wine, as well as giving ½ litre wine per couple with the meal but these days, more and more are happy with the house wine.

We don't, but our house wine is pretty good. I buy a bag-in-box from one of the best producers in Bergerac. He charges E 2.50/litre (plus freight) for what is an extremely acceptable red.

That is another point isn't it, with TDH and GDF, it is obligatory to offer coffee and wine within the fixed price.

Yup. Because the guiding principle is that our guests are sharing our family meal.

Yes, we have to run strictly with the rules, or one day we may well fall foul of the hotelier and camping fraternity, who will no doubt push for much stricter rules on all us B&B's, if they see B&B's riding roughshod through the CDH regulations.

They already are. And in all honesty, if we don't take great care to keep the differences between what WE offer, and what THEY offer, I can't blame them. I'd go further. We are the "interlopers" in a sense. Hotels & restaurants have existed for centuries. CdH here in France is relatively new, certainly in the widespread way it is now to be found. So it's understandable that "they" feel we're competing. I try very hard to explain, both to them and to my colleagues that although we're both in the business of providing overnight lodgings and food, we are doing so on a completely different basis. BUT honestly we are providing an alternative and that is very close indeed to competing for the same market, especially if we don't keep a definite gulf between what we do and what they do. And as the newcomers on the block, it is up to US to maintain this gap. If we are going to compete on their territory, they are perfectly justified in saying that they should have a level playing field. And I would close tomorrow if I had to comply with just HALF the bureaucratic nonsense they get lumbered with.

We will be raising our prices for the "repas du soir"

[snip]

 is a personal opinion of course and I would not worry if others felt it worth doing for less.

I understand your logic perfectly.

Have you noticed just how few members actually do TDH, it appears to me, that in our region, the numbers are really down but I guess the sheer number of restos that abounds, the owners feel that they have no need to offer evening meals.

Yes, I have, Miki. WAY down. GdF tries desperately hard to persuade us to do it of course, but after 2-3 years many proprietors, having tried it and exhausted themselves trying to make decent money out of it, have simply given up. I really don't blame them. But afaic it's an important competitive edge for those of us who do still bother. My rule of thumb (designed to minimise the negative impact of not doing it every day) is that I cook for guests when they come (and include existing clients if newcomers arrive who want to eat) and in any case I won't do it more than 4 times a week, or more than two days running.

But we're extremely lucky, having a little Auberge in the village. what with our room overflow and our meals, we just about keep them viable! It's a real win/win situaton, they're grateful for the business we supply, and we're delighted to be able to say to clients, "no I'm really sorry, we can't do you a meal, but there's a charming little Auberge in the village where for E16 you can get a very honest meal." I don't know what I'd do if we were like some friends - 10 minutes dark and winding roads from the nearest (barely adequate) cafe/restaurant. I guess we'd feel obliged to cook -just as they do. But they're longing to give it up, whereas we still enjoy doing it. That's crucial IMO.  There's nothing puts customers off quicker than an owner who gives the impression of being bored and uninterested. (I hasten to add that our friends don't give that impression, but they find it really difficult at the end of the season!)