legislation on gites & chambres d'hote

[Woodlands]

Hi.

We are about to buy a property with 3 functioning gites and want to add up to 5 chambres d'hote to the business. As I understand, chambres d'hote fall within the 'domaine prive' and as such are not subject to any 'controles' like fire access, security, etc. As long as we continue to have, among our total clientele including gites, no more than 18 guests, do we remain within domaine prive? Or are gites classed as etablissments recevant du public (ERP) thereby requiring 'normes' such as fire engine accessibility etc?

Reason is, a (very unhelpful) man from the local DDE office (who doesn't like the current owners!) has said we can't increase the amount of accommodation in any shape or form because a fire engine cannot pass the bridge leading to the property form the main road, which he said means the existing gites are also illegal but they would turn a blind eye because they have been there for years. I can't help feeling this can't be true as inaccessibility to fire engines (as oposed to 4X4s) would make a huge number of rural gites throughout France illegal! (The bridge is not that small and the owner's building truck passes over it all the time.)

Can anyone confirm also if it's OK, as I think it is, to have chambres d'hote not actually within the owner's building as long as they're on the property (the building we would like to use for this is an adjacent, unrenovated barn).

I know max. 5 chambres is the limit for chambres d'hote. what's the maximum for gites?

Finally, where can I get paperwork/official info to back any of this up?

Thank-you!

[Quillan]

Chambres D'Hotes means "Room of Hosts" which by it's definition is a bedroom (or bedrooms) in the same house as the owner. So legally you can't live somewhere else other than where the guests are staying. That does not mean you can't create a owners flat in the house for yourselves, many go this route.

I would strongly recommend you consider Gites de Fance or Clevacances membership. Not only will it bring in business for you but they have loads and loads of technical experts who will be able to answer all these questions for you and give you constructive help on what to do.

Other may have Gites and CDH in the same grounds who can answer you fire question.

[Coco]

I would strongly recommend you consider Gites de Fance or Clevacances membership. Not only will it bring in business for you but they have loads and loads of technical experts who will be able to answer all these questions for you and give you constructive help on what to do.

Don't forget Chris, it depends on the GdF in your particular departement.  Clearly Aude is extremely helpful and good luck to you, but here in Manche you get no benefit from joining them at all.  And before anyone makes the comment that I have a bee in my bonnet about them, since I have chosen not to go with them and mentioned that fact to various farming neighbours, they have all confirmed that GdF in Manche is worse than useless, due to their director.  And these are people that the organisation was set up to help and who have said that whilst we have this director they wouldn't even consider CdH, but they may do in the future if the leadership changes!!  For example, as for bringing in business is concerned, our GdF openly admitted that they wouldn't expect to be able to bring in business outside of July to September and I can get plenty from my other sources during that time, so GdF to me was only going to be an unnecessary expense.

If I were you Woodlands, I would use GdF to your advantage.  I'd certainly get them round to have a look at your place, but you judge them and the advantages to you, as much as they judge you and your setup.   If they seem to be prepared to be helpful then maybe you're in a good departement.  They'll certainly be able to set you straight on all the legal requirements.  However, they will want you to be complying with those before they will offer you a contract to join, so you can check that you are doing everything correctly, but if you don't think they will be of benefit, then save you money and use it to advertise elsewhere.  A joining fee and the cotisations on 5 bedrooms is quite a lot per year and you won't get in a guide til 2007 now but they'll still want 2005 and 2006 cotisations!!

As far as fire access is concerned, I can't swear to knowing the legal situation but when we used to let our house as a gite I was very aware that lorries (and therefore a fire engine) couldn't get up our drive (which is over 100 metres long) but when I voiced these fears to locals they all took very much the attitude you have voiced, that there are 1000s of rural properties that a lorry couldn't get to but that the fire service has plenty of 4x4s that can.  I must admit, I was never TRULY happy though, til we got our drive widened.

[Miki]

Woodlands,

Chris has got it correct with the fact you do need to be onsite or indeed be part of the lodgings. It has been said before but a rendezvous with the M le Maire may give you a better knowledge of what he would think is allowable. The fire service can often make things pretty difficult but they are not always the ones who will have the decision on something such as CdH’s .

I go on a couple of French forums for CdH, gites etc and we often look at this site for a kind of direction :

http://www.kifaikoi.com/frame_question.asp?q=http://www.kifaikoi.com/forum/Hote-ou-chambres-hote.htm

It doesn’t always offer the GdF side of things but acknowledges as most French do, that GdF do mostly set the rules for the regulations for CdH’s.

Coco “…Don't forget Chris, it depends on the GdF in your particular departement. Clearly Aude is extremely helpful and good luck to you, but here in Manche you get no benefit from joining them at all. “

But you are NOT a member ! You are speaking from hearsay for goodness sake and that is one thing that I rarely if ever, give little thought to. And why then, are there around 300 CdH’s with GdF in Manche ? One of the strongest totals for a department (not a region) in France

The Director, or at least the staff can only put you in the book and put you on the website, what else do you think they can do ? We are given space in both and that’s it, we are then on our own., apart from all the letters and bi monthly mags plus the occasional days out (we rarely go) and of course the annual RV to pick up all the local bumph to put on show in the CdH. Other than that, just as in all advertising, the rest of the work of getting clients, is, as they say, up to you.

No way would they want 2005 cotisations, get real, it is nearly October, you may not like them but please be sensible. The choice for next year is to simply ask them to inspect you early next year for inclusion in 2007 or pay for inclusion on their website for 2006. The local GdF folks will guide you as to what would be best.

[Quillan]

In response to Coco's reply and her comments about GDF, I did not actually single out GDF, I mentioned them and Clevacances and would also like to add Fleurs de Soleil. I have approached all of them over my three years here and have joined the one that suits me the best both from their looking after my interests and the quality of publicity they give. Like all things in life, you pays your money etc, etc. I would like to make it clear that your local office of any of these organisations does not dictate the advertising policies, these are done at a national level. GDF have their data used in many internation renound publications, the AA book of B&B in France (as and example) is just one of many. Their own book is available via Amazon in all countries but so are others as well.

Woodlands - You could try contacting any of these bodies or do what I did, contact them all then look at what they can offer you that compliments your business the best. What they all offer, with varying degrees, is assistance with setting up your enterprise and the ability to either point you in the right direction or give you an answer directly. In all cases it's their job to know the rules and law apertaining to Gites and CDH. If you don't get much of a response locally just go up a level.

As far as the CDH and fire regulations are concerned there are none. I was fully expecting to have to install smoke detectors, fire retardant curtains, bedding, sofas and doors, fire extinguishers etc, etc. Because you are limited in bedrooms and occupancy by the terms of being a CDH there are no requirements for such things. Personally, for peace of my mind, we have torches in all the rooms (they are special and have a small blinking LED so you can find them in the dark) as we do smoke detectors. We also have the latter in the hall and communal areas. We also have a fire blanket in the kitchen and a couple of fire extinguishers dotted around. As I said we are not obliged by law to have them neither are we obliged to ensure they are serviceable. Neither do you require any form of inspection from your local fire department. Of course go over five rooms and you become a small hotel and then we are talking a whole different ball game.

I can't quite see what the DDE are up to as they have no control over CDH and Gites as far as I am aware, you could ask any of the above mentioned organisations on that one.

Hope this helps and good luck

 

[Coco]

You're missing my point Miki, Chris suggested joining one of these associations because they can give you a lot of helpful advice along the lines of the type of thing Woodlands is looking for.  What I am saying, is that if you get them in to assess your property, they won't let you join til you've conformed to all the legalities, so you can find the information out without having to pay to join.

But you are NOT a member ! You are speaking from hearsay for goodness sake and that is one thing that I rarely if ever, give little thought to. And why then, are there around 300 CdH’s with GdF in Manche ? One of the strongest totals for a department (not a region) in France

No, I'm speaking from my personal experience of their attitude when I contacted them.  I am also talking about my neighbour's experience when both he and his sone have approached them. 

The Director, or at least the staff can only put you in the book and put you on the website, what else do you think they can do ?

I don't expect them to do ANYTHING else.  And they don't, which is exactly why I'm saying there can be better ways of spending the several hundred euros that a five bedroom place will cost to place with them.

No way would they want 2005 cotisations, get real, it is nearly October, you may not like them but please be sensible.

Ahh!  Presumption - just as bad as hearsay in my book.  I had the lady sitting at my kitchen table in August, I told her that I wouldn't be able to make the minor safety additions that she requested before joining until the end of the main season, ie September.  I asked if I would still have to pay the 2005 cotisation and the answer was a very firm YES.  But I agree with you Miki, that is not sensible at all.  To even ask for HALF the cotisation would not really be sensible, but if they had suited me in every other way, most of all their attitude, I would have been happy to pay.

 

[Miki]

No I did get that quite valid point actually, my point was about not knowing any more than what people had told you about joining or even being a member.

Miki "...But you are NOT a member ! You are speaking from hearsay for goodness sake and that is one thing that I rarely if ever, give little thought to. And why then, are there around 300 CdH’s with GdF in Manche ? One of the strongest totals for a department (not a region) in France"

Coco ”..No, I'm speaking from my personal experience of their attitude when I contacted them. I am also talking about my neighbour's experience when both he and his son have approached them.”

Miki "..Yes but that is hearsay is it not ? 300 people in Manche who are with GdF, can’t all be wrong can they ? We have plenty of CdH’s with GdF in the 35 but not as many as Manche even"

Miki "..The Director, or at least the staff can only put you in the book and put you on the website, what else do you think they can do ? "

Coco“…...I don't expect them to do ANYTHING else. And they don't, which is exactly why I'm saying there can be better ways of spending the several hundred euros that a five bedroom place will cost to place with them.”

Miki "...Please tell me where that magical place is ? People on here (and they know who they are) know on just how many sites we can be found and none of those get us anywhere near the return we get with GdF. I don’t think we have left a stone unturned in our search for sites to be with and if we are not with one, then the likelihood is that it hasn’t worked for us in the past.

I have no axe to grind with you or anyone on this matter but if I pay out over 700 euros annually to be with GdF, then please believe me, I don’t pay that amount out, just to have their logo at the entrance. We get a superb return on that lay out, we have 70% plus French here and tonight alone we have 14 staying of which, 12 are eating, 4 of which are GdF patrons themselves. Now I am not saying everyone with GdF will be like that tonight but unless you subscribe you will never know, unless people like me tell you and you believe them. I have never given you b u m advice and I am not starting now. We guard our membership and no doubt at this years inspection (we are due one this year) we will be told of a one, or even a few things that need to be done. We will do it, simple as that. As the cliché goes, we know where our bread is buttered. I am here to earn money, no choice in the matter but if and when it ever comes down to pin money (and I am not aiming that at you either) then perhaps I wouldn’t bother but……

Let me reiterate about attitudes with the French. They are often gruff, obnoxious and quite often come across as rude. Ask some of the folks on here !! We have friends that if we didn’t understand their mannerisms, we could quite easily fall out. It is quite “French” for some folks to be straight talking and upfront. For instance, who hasn’t got a friend (French) who has not been quite blunt with them in matters British and French ? They often get the wrong end of the stick in conversations and it can take a bit of explaining on our part as to correct the point. C’est normal !!

So what I am saying, badly perhaps, is take no notice of how the “inspectors” of GdF come over, I wouldn’t say ours were a bundle of fun in the initial period but now we know each other better, it is fine.

[sam in france]

Just a quick point re your question

My wife and i have a ski chalet in the French Alps where we do catered ski holidays, at first we had 4 rooms but now we have 5 www.chaletwensam.com

We did all the research when we were buying and basically we got the impression like you that there were no rules for premises with 5 rooms or less, how wrong were we

We did everything properly got an accountant, registered as a business and visited the Marie and applied for our drinks licence, it was then that we were told that we would be inspected

an appointment was made and on the due date the Mayor, a Gendarme, a fireman, and another person from the department at Thonon turned up and looked around the chalet

Our chalet was new and the end result of it all was we have to install a fire alarm to a certain spec, fit emergency exit directions, also have a set amount of fire extinguishers depending on the chalet size, move a gas cylinder, and keep a record  of all inspections, ie the alarm and extinguishers etc

The cost of the inspection is in excess of 4000 euros so far

In all honesty if you go legal and do everything properly you just cant tell what will be required of you

They have classified us as a Chambres d'hote

I know this is probably not what you want to hear, but in all honesty it would of helped us if we knew more before we started because some of the work ie location of gas cylinder could of been taken care of when we were having the chalet built

Regards

Sam Edwards

www.chaletwensam.com

[Miki]

".....We did all the research when we were buying and basically we got the impression like you that there were no rules for premises with 5 rooms or less, how wrong were we..."

I think your case is quite different to many other CdH's. If I had a few euros for all the people I know, that have been led by the nose by accountants and other "advisors" I would be quite a rich Miki !!

You very much appear to have gone along the professional route. You have made something from scratch, you have applied to open something that I think you had classed as professional and all this has attracted the usual array of authorities. You applied for what type of licence by the way ? And why did that action lead to you being inspected ? Unless it was for a class 3 or 4, in which case you would not be a CdH (Table D'Hôte to be more precise) in the strictest sense but simply named as one because they like hotels to be classed when more rooms are involved.

Sorry but you had an hotel type inspection (or one for a place with 6 or more rooms). And I would hazard a guess that the "wood" build factor was brought in to the equation as well.

All in all, you would not have had all that done in most of the France that I know but for some reason, you simply qualified for inspections by someone who felt you were actually acting more like an hotel than a CdH, even if they did call you that, that to my mind, was purely due to the number of rooms. I think that perhaps you were given poor advice at the start, mainly regarding what exactly you wanted to be. If you wanted to be professional, then that is what you might have been told to expect to happen. I have just noticed on your web site that it appears that you actually have 6 rooms (inc the family room ?) if so, that alone would be a reason, if no other, for you to be inspected. I think that perhaps this has more to it....?

How many little CdH's have 4000,00€ for inspections for a start !! None of the little ones around here with GdF or Clévacances anyway !

[sam in france]

Hi Miki

I think your case is quite different to many other CdH's. If I had a few euros for all the people I know, that have been led by the nose by accountants and other "advisors" I would be quite a rich Miki !!

In fact our accountant was confused as to why they insisted on going to the levels they did

It all started when we visited the Marie for the drinks licence, we only wanted the very basic licence and that is all we have, we do not sell alcohol as such but it is included in our price

I have just noticed on your web site that it appears that you actually have 6 rooms (inc the family room ?) if so, that alone would be a reason, if no other, for you to be inspected. I think that perhaps this has more to it....?

We only had 4 rooms at the time of the inspection with my wife and i living in the apartment under the chalet, max of 10 persons

It seems to me that the French interpret the rules in their own way, still we are very happy and my point is nothing seems to be written down in a simple way that explains what is what

We got most of our advice from this forum, which means well but cannot second guess what each mayor in each department will see as his responsibility 

Regards

Sam Edwards

www.chaletwensam.com   

[Miki]

Hi Sam,

This is indeed one of those cases, where it appears the Maire has interpretated his own rulings (I know the stock answer is often, see the Maire but in my time here in France, I have been told some whoppers, as well as being given the gallic shrug when he/she has not got a clue!! Oh yes and some good advice....)

In your case, you accountant was absolutely right to be confused. He probably knows too well that 4 rooms does not constitute a commerce as such (your decision as to, or not register at the C de Com or again, how someone reads the rules). We have never gone to the Mairie for a licence, we have always gone direct to the Douanes. It does looks as though involving your Maire, could have been the unfortunate reason for all your problems ?

With just 4 rooms, it should have nothing to do with inspections from Govt bodies, it is a shame that you did not involve G de France, as they probably could have helped you in cases like yours.

"....It seems to me that the French interpret the rules in their own way, still we are very happy and my point is nothing seems to be written down in a simple way that explains what is what"

I would generally agree with that. I have given the name of a French website on here before that answers many questions concerning opening and running CdH's which really is good and also has a forum to ask questions.

http://www.kifaikoi.com/forum/Hote-ou-chambres-hote.htm

You will get good advice on here and it is just your luck that you had a Maire that has misread the regulations and has put on his own rules as he sees them. The big problem is the way regulations can get changed and the last people that may hear of them, are the ones trading and only the new "peeps" have had them thrust upon them but to date, I do not know of any change that insists on the regs you have been subjected to for a 4 room B&B. Strictly speaking, having a TdH can change things though .....

[Quillan]

The drinks licence, again one of those things where there is a lot of misinterpretaion. The only people who can issue such a licence are the Duanes (Customs and Excise) it has absolutly nothing to do with your mayor. We have a Grand Licence and it cost us nothing. We went to the Duane, told them what we wanted to do and they gave us the correct licence. Very simple.

There is a load of rubbish talked about the mayor not to mention the amount of UK TV programs which make French mayors out to be gods. Mayors are at the absolute lowest level of the French system and often have no idea about how things really work in France, they are elected and as such come and go. If you want to know about tax visit the your local Tresur Public, if you want to know about building permisions see your local DDE office, if you want to know about drinks see your local Duanes.

Setting up a B&B and using a tax consultant or accountant, you are having a laugh. The system for us (i.e. B&B's) is so simple it beggers belief, you are just throwing your money away using an accountant.