Mixture of table d'hotes and apartments.

[maggietarason]

Hooray, after wondering whether I would ever hear anything more about my proposed purchase with my husband of a little ex-hotel in the Puy de Dome, I have received the papers today to sign for the compromis de vente and have been told that we should expect to complete around the end of the month. Much relief, as we have already moved out here into rental accommodation in order to make a start on work as soon as we have the keys in our sticky paws, and are going to register our E121 and E106s (the E121 for my mother who lives with us) at the local CPAM this week.

Previous experience has taught us that despite all the proper surveys, investigations etc, we will not know the full extent of the amount of work we need to do, and the cost, until after we are the owners and have started to poke around in the bits that surveyors never reach, so we are currently keeping two main plans on the back burner, to either go on with the previous owners plan to turn the place into a number of apartments, rent them out and then sell on in about 5 years or so (ultimately we want somewhere with a bit of land as well) or alternatively to return to either running it as a hotel or, as suggested in a book I was reading, a combination of 5 table d'hote rooms or suites plus two or three gite style apartments.

I have already bookmarked from your forum the link to the forms for registering as a chambre d'hotes with the town hall, but wondered what the situation was when considering a business (probably SARL Famille) which combined both catered and self-catering accommodation within the same building. In addition, my husband and I will be officially 'inactifs' using our E106 forms until we register the business, and will have had no income after selling our UK business (other than a little interest on our almost as little savings) since August this year (we arrived in France in November). Our English accountants will be handling our April 2008-2009 tax affairs on the Uk front, but should we be registering for french tax immediately given that - now we know we probably have no more need to worry about our purchase and that it will go through smoothly (touch wood) we are most definitely resident though unlikely to register the business until at least the spring of next year.

So, two questions really - how to register a mixed bag of accommodation types under the same roof (is there a special form?) And should we register for tax immediately or at the beginning of the 2009 tax year in January which will hopefully be the first year in which we actually generate an income stream.

There is an additional 'complication', our previous business gave us access to some top notch professional craftspeople who might be interested in running craft based holidays with us in the shoulder seasons, along with access to a customer base for the business of about 4000 keen largely amateur craftspeople who might be interested in such holidays. Would this have to be registered as a separate business yet again or could it be incorporated with the chambre d'hotes/gites business. Sorry if this all sounds very basic, I have done my research, honest, and found so many contradictory pieces of 'fact' that I am tearing my hair out! Should have come to you lot in the first place,

I'm sure there will be more questions later, one thing your forum is teaching me really fast is that all the research and reading I have done to date is probably erroneous, or irrelevant, or both, and that there is no substitute for other people's hard earned experience in the real world. I would also really appreciate (if such a thing exists) a definitive list of the order in which things should be done in order to be legal and paying all relevant dues on time and to the right people.

Many thanks for your time,

Maggie

[Quillan]

Tables D'hotes = Table of hosts

Chambres D'hotes = Rooms of hosts (more commonly known in the UK as B&B)

These are quite different things but in layman's terms if you are doing just Chambres D'hotes you are providing, for one price, a room with breakfast for the occupants. French law states that breakfast must be included in the price.

If you want to offer evening meal which is Tables D'hotes then it can only be for those that are in the Chambres D'hotes. If you take others say from the appartments then you are a restaurant and you are in a totally different ball game and will require a proper restaurant license and if you are offering drinks then you will need a license for that as well. Your cooking must then be carried out in a proper kitchen separate from the kitchen you use for yourselves. Obviously in that instant you will have to meet the official hygiene and health and safety laws required for a restaurant, it can get quite expensive.

I have to say I don't know about the legality of combining self catering appartments and Chambres D'hotes in the same building, if nobody else can answer that then you should contact your head office of Tourism which is usually in the same city as your prefecture.

Currently you only have to inform the Mayor if you are running a Chambres D'hotes.

If you are intending to live in France then you should ask for and complete a tax form. If you are getting an E106 then one assumes you were paid PAYE and therefore will receive P60's. Don't forget the French tax year is Jan to Jan and not April to April as in the UK. I think you would be well advised to see a professional account here in France. Many things now in France use the tax form as proof of residence so even though you won't pay hardly any tax in France (initially) it could be to your advantage to complete and return one.

If you register at the Chambres de Commerce as a Chambres D'hotes you can then add further business's (within reason) although my personal best tip is to go visit your local Chambres de Commerce they are normally very helpful. With your 'mixed bag' I think I would speak to the Tourist Office first about the accommodation mix then visit the Chambres de Commerce (not to register but just for a chat) and then a French accountant.

[maggietarason]

Thanks Quillan,

I did actually know about the chambre d'hotes/table d/hotes difference but thank you for stating the options so clearly, we are definitely going to be doing an evening meal as well or there is a lot of very expensive cookery training going to go to waste. We would be looking at a restaurant license anyway as we would want to serve wine with the meals in the evening, I think I am right in needing to get that from the Douanes?

The self-catering apartments would be just that, self-catering, as this would keep the numbers to cook for more manageable and reduce the number of changeovers to deal with. However, with a view to selling on at a later date we are seriously considering biting the bullet and ensuring that the kitchen is up to the current regulations for a hotel/restaurant kitchen as it would give added flexibility to anyone taking over. Presumably the chamber of commerce can put me onto the appropriate place for all the current regulations with regard to hygiene, equipment etc? (Unless of course I can find a link on the forum for it, shall have to start the search).I shall take your advice and ask the tourism people for the area we will be operating within about the possibility of having apartments as well as table d'hote rooms in the same building, I know that when we were house hunting I did see on our travels, places which offered accommodation with food as well as studio apartments etc either in the same or an annexed building but this may be something which varies with department.

We are currently looking for a professional accountant, ideally one with a little English at least but otherwise I have a translator contact who will be happy to accompany me and fill in any gaps I can't manage myself (french not bad but speed and some regional accents can throw me), and I will ask for and complete a tax form straight away, happy to get into the system really, I know there will be a certain amount of crossover because of the different tax years. If anyone out there can recommend an accountant who is either based in the Auvergne or is happy to do business by phone/e-mail/fax etc. I would be delighted to hear from them as I do prefer to go on personal recommendation (as with our English accountant who was brilliant and recommended by a friend).

So, tax office, Tourist Office, Chamber of Commerce, accountant - got it. Many thanks again, After a brief 'rest' of a few months after selling our business I find myself strangely excited to be getting back into the whole bureaucratic swing of it, clearly I'm not a person who can cope with time off! How sad is that,

Maggie

 

[Quillan]

I would go to the tax office after the accountant, you don't want to fill in the wrong form, it can take years to sort out otherwise.

[oscar]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Many things now in France use the tax form as proof of residence so even though you won't pay hardly any tax in France (initially) it could be to your advantage to complete and return one.

[/quote]

It's not really a question of whether it is to your advantage to complete a French tax form - if you live here it's the law - there is no choice.

I'd also hesitate to set yourselves up as a full restaurant - cotisations will be very high - they won't take into account that you will only be cooking for the five rooms.  The way table d'hotes work is that the wine is included in the cost of the meal, so as long as you have your licence from the duanes (which is free) you don't need to register as a restaurant.  Of course, you can still go ahead with making sure that you have the kitchen set up professionally but if you, your husband and your son are hoping to make a living out of this then paying cotisations on a restaurant is going to take a large part of your earnings.  A lot of people don't understand when they first move to France that it isn't the income tax that cripples you - a lot never even get to the lowest thresshold - it's the social charges that can be incredibly high - and I wouldn't be surprised if there were two separate lots to pay if you are running chambres d'hotes and classing the table d'hotes as a restaurant.

[Quillan]

Sadly there are many who don't fill in a tax form thinking they are being clever even though the law tells them they must. What they fail to realize is that by completing one, even if its zero income or tax there are several benefits to be gained both directly and indirectly.

There are two types of license for wine, one you give wine included in the price and the greater license (Grand) which allows you to sell bear and wine with the meal (the same rule applies, it must be a proper 3 course meal and not a bag of crisps and a sandwich). The license is 'forever', never has to be renewed and when I got mine it was from the Duanes.

[suein56]

[quote user="Quillan"]

and the greater license (Grand) which allows you to sell bear and wine with the meal ...[/quote]

Do you catch the bear yourself Q?

Sue [Www][blink][;-)]

[Quillan]

Ooooops. Spell checkers are great aren't they but they don't pick up grammatical errors. Sorry about that I meant beer.

[suein56]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Ooooops. Sorry about that I meant beer. [/quote]

Please don't apologise, we knew what you meant all along ... it is just it is much funnier with 'bear' instead of beer ... [:)]

Sue