well water and swimming pools

[parsac23]

does anyone know if well water is likely to be ok for topping up swimming pool in the event of restrictions? we have a well close to the pool and no fosse septiqes around as we are on mains drainage. We expect we would have to have the well water tested, is this the case and also where would you take a sample to test it. 

[zeb]

62 departments are restricted already so maybe yours is one the list? You may find you need your well water for something more important than swimming in if the restrictions become worse.(Sorry, can't do smilies as I have Imac!)

Also, see Icene's posting in the SW France section below.

[Jackie]

Here in Deux Sevres (79) the restrictions about topping up pools etc, apply to both mains and well water, I suppose they are worried about the low water table! Having had our well water analysed I would not want to swim in it! Chemically ok but lots of coliforms and faecal coliforms. The pool people advised us not to use well water for other reasons as well. The local pharmacy sent off the sample for testing for us and we had the result in about a week.......................John not Jackie

[Richardbk]

it depends where you are. For example in 23 there is now a total band on dosmestic use for car washing, pools and a ban from 10h-20h for the garden. This is department wide and thus is not fixed to a particular water source. Thus in theory well water is also covered ...

 http://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/0_tableau_arretes.pdf provides the list of water restrictions for all departments. It is updated daily.

regs

Richard

[Opel Fruit<P><BR>Opel Fruit, Dept. 53<P>]

Fortunately, our well water is only just non-potable. And there are no restrictions yet on well water use.

However, for your sanity, if you can use well water (in both senses) fill the pool via a filter.

Our water is OK until it settles, then we get a brown sludge on the bottom. With a filter, no such problem!

[Poolguy]

There are many other difficulties using well water in times of plenty as well.

In addition to the coliforms already mentioned, over-fertilization by farmers has effected the water table and therefore the water in your well could also be high in nitrates, nitrites and heavy metals such as copper, iron, magnesium etc.

Its for you to seek medical advice about the consequences of these elements in your pool water. Certainly the recommended levels by the Department of Health for these substances is Zero even though it clear that some of them are also necessary for life.

A comprehensive photometric test should give you an idea of their proliferation but what to do about it is another question. If you have no choice but to use well water and heavy metals exist then you can extract them with a sequestering agent.

 

Colour	Green	Clear Green	Red/Brown	Black/Brown
Cause	Algae, if cloudy.	Iron or copper corrosion or in water supply.	Iron corrosion or in water supply.	Manganese in water supply.
Treatment	1 Brush. 2 Shock treat & brush. 3 Vacuum.	1 Adjust pH & alkalinity to recommended ranges. 2 Add sequestering agent & run filter. 3 Twelve hours later, shock treat the pool. 4 Retest pH & alkalinity. Also test hardness levels &, if necessary, raise to 200 ppm, minimum.

 

However there are consequences for your pool liner with this type of contamination. Sometimes it will do harm but most times its just unsightly. Nevertheless there are ways to fix the problem.

Colour	Blue/Green	Red/Brown	Black
Cause	Copper or Iron corrosion or from water supply.	Iron or manganese corrosion or from water supply.	Manganese in water supply.
Treatment	1 Adjust pH & alkalinity to recommended ranges. 2 Vigorously brush the stained areas. 3 Add sequestering agent & run filter. 4 Twelve hours later, shock treat the pool. 5 Retest pH & alkalinity. Also test hardness levels &, if necessary, raise to 200 ppm.

These tables have been taken from texts by LaMotte.

There are clearly many many things to go wrong with pool water, that is evident to most owners. THese factors are increased many times by the use of unfiltered ground water. Certainly I would advise comprehensive testing by a competent laboratory and referral to a health profession for advice. As for what to do when you discover problems, i suppose that is the provence of your pool water quality professional.

I hope that this has been helpful.

Andrew

[Motorhead]

I don't usually look at this section of the forum but it's too hot to sleep and I'm bored.

So Hendo what do you mean by a photometric test? Is it something to do with  spectrometry perchance?

How can you extract anything with a sequestering agent without extracting all the water as well? For instance if I poured enough sodium thiosulphate into a pool I could sequester (or chelate to give it the non American term) all the chlorine by the 2 compounds combining to form sodium chloride. However, I wouldn't actually be extracting the chlorine as it's still there even if it is now forming part of a more complex molecule.

Also when did magnesium become a heavy metal? 

[Poolguy]

Well Goodmorning Motorhead

Thanks for joining in and offering your expertise.

Semantics aside what we are trying to achieve here is practical help to those people who find themselves in the position of a pool with problems which do not respond to the usual remedies.

Where a Pool owner has chosen to fill their pool from subterranean sources and finds that there are consequences, there seems very little help here and about. So in this thread, I am raising remedies floated by various organisations who have researched and published this information.

The sequestering agent referred to in the LaMotte tables is selective to bind with the problematic metal which can then be filtered out.

For my part I would not imagine why you would want to sequester chlorine, I would have thought that the contrary is preferable. In nearly all cases, the pools I have visited have a deficiency in chlorine (especially the one's with salt systems) so its preferable to find systems which add more chlorine I would have thought.

My posts are intended to be of practical help, if I cannot be, then generally speaking I don't post.

Andrew

[Motorhead]

Andrew

I did not post to be disruptive although it is probably a bit of forum drift. However, you made some assertions that didn't quite square my understanding of basic water chemistry. This intrigued the scientist within me therefore I asked for some clarification, which has not been entirely forthcoming.

I think I will have to assume that it was some kind of spectrometry that you were referring to.  It is quite some time since I used the process myself and I'm interested to know what kind of kit is being used these days eg have they advanced to near infrared yet?

As for the sequestering you have confirmed my understanding that this alone cannot extract anything nevermind heavy metals. When you talk about a second stage filtration process I am thinking that there must also be some flocculation occurring or that the water is being filtered through some kind of resin that has a special affinity for the newly created compound. So which is it?

I only referred to sequestering chlorine as that was the first example that sprung to mind. When I worked in aquaculture I often had to sequester cholrine.

I'm not asking these questions because I'm particularly interested in swimming pools but I am very interested in the fundamental water science. 

[Poolguy]

Motorhead

Again thanks for asking. Its good to get some depth into these subjects rather than the same thing over and over.

 

Firstly the measurement, I am currently evaluating two different mobile water-testing laboratories for use when I visit clients pools. These are the LaMotte Water lab 2 and the (much) more expensive Cifec Spectrocolorimetres PCM3. As I understand it both work on the same principle of adding a specific reagent to a water sample and offering the resultant to an electronic eye which, after calibration apportions a value to the sample corresponding to the intensity of the colour. Whereas the La Motte Machine will analyze 11 different tests the Cifec offers more than 60 different parameters. If this technology is familiar to you than I hope that this will have answered your question.

 

After witnessing the test regime following a visit to a Commercial pool from the Department of Health (DDASS), I am inclined to go for the more sophisticated model. Certainly they were requiring result within acceptable parameters over more than 16 parameters.

 

As for sequestering agents, my understanding of this process and the claims by the manufacturer is that its purpose is to present metals for filtering. As for the agents themselves and the process of bonding I cannot offer a response. The process of extraction though is more straightforward and can be studied for the most effective choices. Presently I prefer to use Zeolite for this purpose as it will filter as fine as diatomaceous earth (about 3 microns) but will not clog nearly as fast and far less work to maintain. Zeolite will ‘attract’ these compounds being presented and hold them in a crystalline lattice. I am not so sure about resinous materials for filtering as I fear they might act in a similar fashion to earth filters.

 

The one thing that truly concerns me is the proliferation of ‘false or misleading’ information, which abounds in the pool industry particularly about water quality and sanitization. Many companies who install pools give scarcely any information to their clients about the facility that have built. Not how it works, not how to maintain it. Certainly I do not wish to contribute to that body of ‘misinformation’, but try to give concise and well-researched answers to particular concerns. Whereas I am not so much a scientist, I am relying on the literature to fashion a workable solution to this problem. Naturally if you can contribute to that solution then I welcome your input.

 

Andrew

[Deby]

Well, (literally) we are not using our well water, even though it is good enough (had it tested).  Our farmer is watering his cows.

However, topping up pools is an issue as if we do not top up - our guests cannot use the pool. They will be disgruntled, go home and not spend any money in the surrounding areas (economic impact).

Our Maire is still watering the flowers in our village and so too the grass!

So, what is one to do?

Deby