Always Algae !!

[JJ]

I have been struggling all season to keep the dreaded green slime at bay.

I have a rectangular salt water pool, I regularly vacuum the floor and walls, backwash and rinse the sand filter, add chlor choc when I get an attack, and each week a dose of anti algae liquid.

My filtration is during the day at the prescribed hours depending on temp.

But every couple of days it come back to haunt me.

Am I doing something wrong, what else can I do.

I have read in Terry Tamminen's "Ultimate Pool Maintantance Manual" (which has nothiing at all about salt water systems) that I may need to strip down the sand filter and replace the sand, but the system is only a year old.

Hendo, can you help me.

Any advice gratefully recieved.

[Mpprh]

Hi

it seems to be a strange year. I've been keeping an eye on a few pools for local expat gite owners over the last few years.

And I've got a greeny, too !

If the ph is OK and Cl is 3 (next visitors due 16/9),
I didn't think you had to worry about algae. Pool temp is only 28C, so not as hot as in the summer.

My own pool is fine, and is running at about about 1.5 - 2 for the Cl.

We have the problem that refilling pools is banned because of water shortages. So if it is a build up of nasties in the water, I can't pump water out and refill.

A neighbours pool that was abandoned in July a few years ago :



Peter

[JJ]

Peter,

Thanks for that, I would die if my pool were that green.

My ph is fine as I have an auto system, the cl is at 3 at the moment and my temp is 25 degrees, so I am still confused.

Have you heard about stripping down and replacing the sand in the filter at such a young age?

 

[Mpprh]

Hi

my local pool man suggested changing sand every 5 or 6 years here.

I think it may depend on how hard the water is, too.

Peter

 

 

[Poolguy]

Hello JJ

Big problems with a salt pool are not uncommon in my experience.

There are a number of things which needs to be checked.

First can you post me the pH reading

next the active chlorine reading (using dpd1 tablets in your test kit and not reagent)

Then the salt concentration

Then the capacity of your salinator, Brand and model.

Are you in hard or soft water area.

How long since your water was changed?

How often have you used anitalgae

With this information I can help you solve your problem.

Andrew

PS THis problem has nothing what so ever to do with filtration, its a sanitisation problem.

 

[Suninfrance]

I'd be interested to see how you get on with this subject.  We have friends who have a new pool (installed last year I think) and water goes a disgusting lime green every few days.  It is being backwashed and treated, but the green keeps coming back with a vengeance.

I'll try and get the PH level etc, to see if anyone here can help.

Jan

[Poolguy]

Jan

 

By all means ...

 

if you let me have answers to the above questions and, in addition what size your pool is and what department, then I am sure that I can help you.

I am shocked that the company that installed your pool have not come to your rescue. It seems to be a more frequent scenario... not many of them have the faintest idea about water sanitation which I find quite incredible. It could not happen in most other countries where pools are popular.

A green pool is entirely preventable and unnecessary outcome of the summer. You don't/shouldn't put up with it. It means that the system of sanitisation is not working... which means that you should change system to one which does work.

Naturally, I have suggestions allors

Andrew

[Mpprh]

Hi

 

just worth asking others : I know it depends on area, but has this year been worse than others for algae ?

Any idea why ?

Peter

 

 

[chirpy]

RECHECK CHLORINE LEVEL AND PH WITH NEW TABLETS.

CHECK SALINITY.

THEN TRY WITH AN EXCESS OF CHLORINE  TO KILL ALGAE.

USE A FLOCCULANT  TO HELP REMOVE ALGAE DEAD SPORES AND KEEP PUMP CICULATING 24 HOURS FOR 3 DAYS.

WHAT IS TEMPERATURE OF WATER. IF ABOVE 28 CENTIGRADE YOU NEED TO KEEP CIRCULATION 24 HOURS A DAY DEPENDING ON POOL SYSTEM.

I HAD PROBLEM LAST YEAR DUE TO LOW CHLORINE AND DECREASING CIRCULATION. IF YOU DI THIS THEN YOU PAY MORE FOR CHEMICALS THAN MONEY YOU MAY SAVE ON ELECTRICITY.

[Suninfrance]

Andrew

I'll get back to you with the answers to your questions as soon as I can.  Friends are looking after the pool as part of a cleaning package for their gite and will need to contact the owners for some of the details regarding hard/soft water etc.

Jan

[Ariegoisie]

I use a pool ioniser which is solar powered. This has kept the water crystal clear since April when the pool was opened after the winter. I use no algaecide and very low chlorine. The pool is fresh water with a sand filter. Filtration runs for about 10 hours a day. Looking at standard recommended levels for chlorine and chemical dosage for algae control I estimate that I will have saved around 250 EUR in costs this summer. This seems a good thing as I don't like tipping things that say 'poisonous, don't get in contact with skin, eyes, seek urgent medical attention, etc' into a pool and then jumping in with it. (good for the planet too I expect)

We've used the pool all summer and there has been no incidence of sickness, ear infections, etc. The water doesn't hurt your eyes, dry out your skin or turn blonde hair green ! Not had a pool before so don't know if this is unusual. I believe ionisers work in salt water pools as well.

G.

[nimportequoi]

Use PoolRX, a mineral sanitiser (silver, zinc and copper to control algae). I used to have terrible algae problems, even though I checked the ph and chlorine levels regularly. I've been using it since the beginning of June and had not had algae since, despite some very hot pool temperatures. I buy mine from my pool supplier, but you can get it on line cheaper, if you want more details the website is

www.poolrx.com

It really does work and it is such a relief not having to worry about recurrent algae and put in algaecide all the time!

[Poolguy]

I am somewhat disturbed by the above two posts as there is a reliance on remedies which are not addressing the cause of the problem which is; unsatisfactory sanitisation systems.

Really, it matters not one wit what the temperature is if your water if it has a good chlorine level. What does matter and quite a lot is the amount of additional chemical solids which are dissolved in the water (Total dissolved solids). Of particular concern are the heavy metals, Silver, Copper and Zinc, also magnesium, iron and titanium. None of these substance are beneficial to your health in concentration and all end up in the pool though the algaecides and ionisers mentioned above. And that is just what you are doing when you are relying on these algaecides or other systems to keep your pool from going green. No professional will ever advise you to rely on them but rather use them sparingly as a last resort even. In addition it is absolutely obligatory to change nearly 75% of your water in Winter to dilute their concentration other wise the build up is extremely dangerous.

If you care about your health and that of your children and other swimmers, then do not use these treatments if you can help it. I know of a very successful biological algaecide which is less problematic but that too is no replacement for good water management.

In the end if your water is going green more than once every season - then you must face up that you have a problem and seek advice, as your system is failing and your health is at risk. What do I mean by health.... well in the worst case I know of one death from Legionnaire’s disease which was contracted from a swimming pool. Its a strong statement to make but I must try to emphasise the point that pool owners owe a responsibility to all the people who use their pool to know and understand how to properly sanitise the water without resorting to a dangerous cocktail of chemicals.

Additionally, just because the water is clear does not mean that its not harbouring dangerous microbes such as e-coli.

If you have an effective primary method of killing these dangerous bacteria, then no swimmer has anything to fear.

Andrew

[Ariegoisie]

Don't be too disturbed pool guy.

I have been checking around the web about pool ionisers, health legislation regarding their use and a great deal since your post on the health issues of heavy metals as water purifiers. Jury seems to be out on what levels are safe but the levels discussed are substantially above that necessary for pool purification. Tried to keep this impartial, ignoring the ioniser manufacturers and those in the business of flogging chemicals (who are obviously going to be biased).

The ion levels can be monitored and the ioniser use geared to maintaining a constant level. I have found nowhere that suggests these levels are anywhere near harmful. If you're aware of some authoritative report that I should be aware of then I'd appreciate the URL.

For the moment I feel happier with the information I have discovered about ionisation than the alternative cocktail of acknowledged poisons and irritants. I would of course advise everyone to do their own research rather than take my advice.

As I said I use a reduced level of chlorine to oxidise out suncreams and other gunk. As far as bacteria and the like, for a non-public pool the ioniser should be fine - silver-copper ionisation is used to purify drinking water in hospitals and by bottled water suppliers.

G.

[Smithgor1]

Thanks Ariegoisie for raising the profile of the low/ no chlorine method of water purification.

I'm just in the planning stages of putting a pool in and because I wont be there all the time was worried about how to keep things balanced in my absence.

A quick trawl on the net shows that using chemicals is not the only way and that ionisation - from algaebars through to fully automated systems - would appear to be an attractive alternative, offering both health and running cost benefits.

Clearly there are at least 2 schools of thought on the subject. Poolguy is clearly knowledgeable of and an advocate of the chemical method. He raises some good questions which I'll be putting to the companies I approach about ionisers / uv treatment. For their part the Ionisation camp seem to have some fairly heavyweight independant verification of their claims.

I'll let you know how it goes.

[Smithgor1]

I read this thread with interest, as I want to install a pool in time for next summer but have a major concern about swimming in either a chemical cocktail or soup of heavy metals. Poolguy clearly comes from the chemical persuasion and is knowledgeable about that part of the business but I was unhappy about some of the adverse claims he made of the ionising systems so did some investigation. After all if they are so bad how come major hotel chains and health clubs are changing over to them?

1. Heavy metal concentrations. The best ionisation systems operate about the following levels

AG 40 ppb Drinking water standard 1000 ppb ( Parts per billion)

CU .3 ppm Drinking water standard 3.0 ppm ( Parts per million)

Zn 40 ppb Drinking water standard 1000 ppb ( Parts per billion)

So well within the drinking water standard.

2. I have found no difficulty finding suppliers in the UK who recommend ionisation. I can imagine there being reluctance among those who depend on chemical sales alone.

3. There is no need to change water. I am advised that the quality of water attained when using a good ionising system makes it drinkable and it remains so. There is a continual flocculation effect through the magnetic action of the electrodes continually coagulating the TDS to a size big enough for the filters to take out. TDS is caused mainly by chlorine carriers such as sodium of calcium deposits, together with body fats and other contaminants. Heavy metals do not contribute at all. A good back-washing regime for the filter is needed.

4. Ionisation is actually extremely effective against a very wide range of bacteria, fungus spore and algae spore. A trawl of the web shows it to be used extensively in the control of bacteria in public buildings such as hospitals, hotels and nursing homes. It is apparently recommended by health and safety for the control of legionnaires' disease bacteria.

However Ionisation does not have any effect on organics. Body fats etc. These require an oxidiser and we’re back to chlorine as, probably, the most cost-effective way. Even there though the free chlorine level is only 0.5ppm. Drinking water is 1.0ppm. so again well within the drinking water standards. Hopefully this would allow (chemical) costs to be dramatically reduced.

 

I will certainly be going with ionisation based on what I’ve found out from searching the web, reading the literature and contacting the manufacturers. I’d recommend others to do the research as well, as technology clearly has moved on – the answer’s out there, not in drums of chemicals!

[Poolguy]

In reply to you both I can now confirm that my company is undergoing research into the use of Ionisation in concert with automatic Chlorine and pH control for pool water sanitisation.

By itself we are of the opinion that Ionisation is wholly inadequate for the job for a swimming pool. This view is shared by DDASS (Dept of Health) in the Regulations there is no mention that this technology is either approved or suitable for swimming pools. Further, that would mean that any commercial enterprise who uses this technology alone would be in contravention with the norms and would hence be ordered to pump their pool and/or face prosecution. The norms are unambiguous an leave no room for negotiation.

With regard to the use of Ionisation for purifying drinking water, I understand that this is common practice and presents no real danger to public health. The reason is that there is a constant flow of fresh water through the ioniser so that the possibility of a build up of metal is not present. However in a swimming pool its that same water which is passing through the cells time and time again... (3 times per day) therefore there is a terrific buildup of metal in the water. This exact situation is being tested in one of my clients pools who had one of these devices installed sometime ago. The water is clear, however it is loaded with metal to an extent that, as a professional I had no choice but to condemn the pool as unsafe for swimming. Hence it has to be emptied entirely, flushed and refilled, which is a definite hardship in these days of restrictions. This pool has now an automatic chlorine and pH controller and the Ioniser is in our technical lab undergoing tests.

With regard to Hotels, Campings and the like, I would like to know which Hotels have ionisers, because it is our opinion that there cannot be any in this country for the reason discussed earlier. For our part, the better choice and one taken up by the Novatel Chain to name but one is that of 'just sufficient' dosing of chlorine automatically. Its reliable, its safe and there is no 'chemical cocktail' of which the previous posters seem so afraid.

Using the Automatic Controller system you don't need, Flocculant, Cyanuric acid, algeacide, hivernage, or any of these other pool additives that are proliferating around the market. None of which are, in our opinion, contributing to you health when swimming or ease of pool management.

There are many other aspects to this issue, research is continuing, but my personal battle is more and more against misinformation spread perhaps not maliciously but out of enthusiasm for technologies which seems to offer a benefit, but in the case of Ionisation is no where near a final solution for the domestic or commercial pool. If you do use one, then you must also chlorinate otherwise your health is at risk. So if you are to chlorinate I don't see the point to wear the added cost of ionisation.

Andrew

[GordonS]

Andrew

Following on from a thread about a year ago to which I've not seen anything further. I was interested to know if you had come up with any results / recommendations following on from the work your company was doing testing out ionisation.

[Poolguy]

Gordon

Not much has changed during this year...

There are still people promoting systems for sanitising pools 'without

chemicals' and they still do not work satisfactorily.

In truth none of them are entirely successful and you end up needing a bit of

'chemicals' to top up rendering the whole exercise a bit pointless in my view.

The DDASS still will not recognise them or allow them in 'public' pools.

In all I have to say that there is still no substitute for well established ‘good

pool management’ practices, with adequate equipment which will deliver the

following spec;

       3 hour circulation time

       1 micron filtration rate

       1-2 ppm chlorine maintained constantly

       7.1-7.3 pH maintained constantly

       80-120ppm total alkalinity

       Zero metals

       Zero Phosphates, nitrates, ammoniates

       Zero Hydrogen Peroxide

       50-80ppm Cyanuric acid

With this spec a healthy, clear pool is virtually assured. If one of these

elements is out of balance then you are sure to get problems.

There is no mystery about this business, there are also no magic wands

which can make a good solution with poor or inadequate equipment. My advise is,

that if you are planning to install a pool or if you are fed up with struggling

with a delinquent existing pool, then analyse the spec you are facing against

the above. If it falls outside the range then you are making your life unnecessarily

difficult. For these are achievable aims and plenty of people are enjoying

these results. So if you want to know how then PM me and naturally I will help

all I can.

If on the other hand you want to experiment and mess around with alternatives

and you are knowledgeable enough to analyse the consequences and effects, 

then by all means - work away. Perhaps one day there will be a viable

alternative, but currently I haven't seen one.

Andrew

      

[JJ]

As it was me who started this thread I thought I might make some updated comments.

Most of the summer went well, I have a strict regime, but in mid August I noticed that the algae was trying to establish itself again.

My daily checks revealed no real problems with levels.

I shocked the pool, no improvement, so then I went for a quick fix, I used a peroxide based product which did the trick, cleared the algae, and the water was crystal clear.

But, the peroxide masks the chlorine, so after six weeks back comes the algae.

My levels are all spot on, conclusion is that the peroxide may be the culprit.

Andrew, is there a test that can be carried out for the peroxide levels?

[Poolguy]

Yes

There is a test for Hydrogen Peroxide, but if its already in your pool, then its largely academic.

The usefulness of the test in this case I suspect would be more relevant to the case where you are wanting to be rid of it (peroxide), the only effective way to do so is to change water. In which case, if you have changed enough then any trace would have a much-diminished effect.

However, if there is a continual lack of response from the water to choc treatment then it is sure that there is a residual present, which still 'masks' the effectiveness of the chlorine. So evidently there is still a necessity to change more water to dilute the residual.

Knowing all of this I would hope that in the future, pool owners will make two very important changes to their regime:

1. READ carefully the contents of the packaging of all of the products before you buy it or use it in your pool
2. THINK very carefully about the consequences of using one product or another, concerning its effects on the santization regime already extant and also your health

In the end, what seems like a cheap fix may end up costing you an arm and a leg to solve what was in the beginning a simple problem but is now a mater of major contamination of chemicals.

So if your in any doubt, as to the effects of one product or another, then seek advice from a competent pool professional, or there are any number of worthy advisers here for example.

Andrew