I1 Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 I will shortly be registering with CPAM and then also need to take out top-up insurance. I've read through some of the topics here and am pretty confused. There seems quite a lot of "buzz-words" Mutual, convention, etc.I was just going to go to probably the same people that do my house insurance and get cover from them. I had (it appears incorrectly) assumed the insurance covers the costs that CPAM does not re-imbrues.I suppose my questions are; what are the issues/aspects of top-up insurance I should look at and ask about.Also, I thought that in France, certain types of serious illness and major treatment are covered 100% by CPAM and do not require top-up or contributions by the patient. Is this really the case or are there major holes one can risk falling into (and thus becoming bankrupted by becoming ill). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Perhaps I can answer your questions, including your glasses. Some treatments are totally free, diabetics for example and some heart diseases. There must be a list somewhere one can read and perhaps somebody else can point you to it. When you get your ‘top up’ or mutual you need to ensure you get the right amount of cover. A 100% policy does not give you 100% of the difference back. To explain, a 100% policy will give you 100% of the amount not paid for by CPAM up to and including the value set as a guideline for doctors to charge and is set by the state. There is I believe a website somewhere that gives you these prices, somebody will point you towards it. The problem is that many doctors and specialists charge up to 400% (rare) more so you can often find yourself out of pocket. To get round this you can get a 200, 300 and 400% policies and at the very top end you can get a policy that covers everything. Because I have a medical history and so does my wife we have the top of the range policy which costs us just over 1,000€ per year. So far we have calculated we have actually got more out than we have put in. Pats special glasses cost over 700€ and mine over 500€ not to mention other problems we have had which include hospital visits, x-rays, MRI scans etc. None of these things have cost us a penny. The terminology is as I understand it as follows Medical Assurance (insurance) is just an insurance policy and is used in the same way as a Mutual. I believe AGF operate the insurance system, the more claims the bigger your premium. A Mutual is where your payment is a share of what was actually paid out last year. So say 100€ was paid out and there are 10 members in the mutual then the years premium will be 11€ each, the extra 1€ is added to pay the wages of the administrator. Once you have joined CPAM and have got your Carte Vital (keeping it simple) you are classed as resident in France as far as health is concerned. Therefore when you visit the UK you can get emergency treatment only just like any other EU national visiting, anything else you will have to pay for. Your class 3 stamp (you can check this with Newcastle) only maintains your pension rights and absolutely does not contribute to your health and unemployment benefit entitlements. As Peter Owen said elsewhere, you should carefully select your ‘Mutual’ depending on your current needs. If you are fit and healthy then you can probably get away with a 100% policy. If you have a load of medical problems that require constant visits to the doctor, hospital etc then you need to pay more and get a better policy. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1 Posted October 29, 2004 Author Share Posted October 29, 2004 Many thanks for your very informative response. I have not appreciated the difference between a mutual and insurance. Also I had not appreciated that (some) doctors and treatments are changed at above the CPAM listed rate.I recently had a health scare for a couple of weeks (which fortunately turned-out to be not as serious as it first appeared. My experience them was that visits, etc. were are reasonably priced and the quality of service very high. My local doctor charged the €20 per visit and e.g. an ultrasonic scan cost €38. Everybody saw me same day (except the ultrasonic scan which was next day). However, apart from the health aspects, the potential for larger bills worried me a bit.Sorry, a couple more questions:Once registered (carte vital), when returning to visit the UK should one get a French E111 form (as one is on holiday in UK) ?Do Mutuals vary the payments according to age and other factors or is it a straight split across all members (i.e. does a 25 yrs old pay the same contribution as a 85 year old or are the contributions "weighted"). I ask as it would seem a mutual could offer better value for money s an insurance company will require to make a profit (i.e. they need to get income equal to claims+administration+profit whereas mutual needs income of just claims+administration).I assume the Mutuals are large national organisations and thus "the following year" is not excessively varied by e.g. one or two people becoming very ill.Presumably, there are longish notice periods on leaving a mutual (in the same way as you have to give insurance companies quite a bit of notice that you do not wish to renew your policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 [quote]Many thanks for your very informative response. I have not appreciated the difference between a mutual and insurance. Also I had not appreciated that (some) doctors and treatments are changed at abo...[/quote]Many thanks for your very informative response. I have not appreciated the difference between a mutual and insurance. Also I had not appreciated that (some) doctors and treatments are changed at above the CPAM listed rate.It’s not so much doctors as specialists, surgeons and consultants.I recently had a health scare for a couple of weeks (which fortunately turned-out to be not as serious as it first appeared. My experience them was that visits, etc. were are reasonably priced and the quality of service very high. My local doctor charged the €20 per visit and e.g. an ultrasonic scan cost €38. Everybody saw me same day (except the ultrasonic scan which was next day). However, apart from the health aspects, the potential for larger bills worried me a bit.These are standard fees charged throughout France. The speed of service and the quality in France is much, much better than what I have experienced in the UKSorry, a couple more questions:Once registered (carte vital), when returning to visit the UK should one get a French E111 form (as one is on holiday in UK) ?This subject was debated a while back and apparently you won’t require a E111 to visit the UK from France Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Fitzsie Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 Quillan, you seem to know a great deal about this subject so I am hoping you can help me as well. As time goes by we seem to be getting so much information about what we should do for healthcare that I am starting to feel really confused about it all. Our circumstances are that my partner and I are moving to France at the end of the month and purely as a temporary measure we are applying for the E111. He is at retirement age (60 years), however I am quite a few years younger (so no retirement for me yet!!). In simple terms, if possible, what should we be doing with regard with healthcare as soon as we arrive in France? There is reasonable pension coming in but we are not hugely wealthy Any help gratefully received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Quillan Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 [quote]Quillan, you seem to know a great deal about this subject so I am hoping you can help me as well. As time goes by we seem to be getting so much information about what we should do for healthcare that ...[/quote]Unfortunatly I am not an expert in these matters, Peter Owen is your man. What I can tell you is that (and Peter would say the same) sorting out the UK end of your health cover before you come should be at the top of your list and heavily underlined. Please read the information in the French Health System FAQ’s part of this forum. You might like to read my post, link below, which shows what can happen if you don’t get it right. http://www.livingfrance.com/instantforum/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=20&MessageID=2239 At 60 I believe he is not eligible for State Pension in the UK, that being the case he is not eligible for an E121. Both of you should apply to the Department of Works and Pensions in Newcastle for an E106. It is important that even if you think you are not eligible for an E106 you still apply as you will require the letter of refusal from them to help enter the system in France. If you are refused an E106 it might pay you to write and ask the specific reason you have been refused. I say this because my letter was a computer jobby and it just said something like “you have been refused for any one or combination or all of the three reasons stated below”. The normal eligibility for an E106 is that you have been in full time employment for the last 2 years preferably paying PAYE or/and a class 1 stamp. The reason for you both applying for an E106 is that if one is refused and the other not the one that is refused can also use the others E106 if your status is married (to each other). You said you will be moving to and living in France therefore an E111 is of no use whatsoever you must apply to join the French system when you arrive. If your partner will be drawing a private pension he will have to declare this for both tax and cotistations (French word for NI contributions). “Ah but I’m paying tax in the UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... I1 Posted October 30, 2004 Author Share Posted October 30, 2004 I almost certainly did everything wrong, so my experience below is in no way contradicting what others have said, nor making any recommendations. Also, I'm not complaining about e.g. Newcastle.Before moving I applied for my E106. Unfortunately, it took so long to come in that I had moved long before it ended-up arriving (be aware it can take some time -3 or 4 months in my case). Thus, before moving to get some cover I got an E111..I then went to register with CPAM and they rejected the E106 because a) My address was wrong (i.e. my old UK address) and b) The DWP ? had made a typo' in the "valid from" date and it didn't start cover until 1/Jan/2005. The wrong address was not much of an issue and had that been the only thing then it would not have been a problem.However, I needed to see a doctor and asked them what I should do. They asked if I had an E111 (which I did) and they said I should use that. I have read somewhere that the UK were starting to fine people for "invalid use" of an E111. Maybe whoever wrong it was wrong but I raised this with CPAM and they said that as they were refunding my costs under the E111, it had nothing to do with UK authorities. CPAM were very helpful, “down to earth”, etc. which came as quite a shock after my (limited) experiences with the UK authorities.I sent back my "faulty" E106 with a covering letter asking a replacement could now be treated as urgent. A replacement then took 3 months (at least) to arrive.If you do not have all the paperwork you need (E106, E121, whatever) when you actually move I would suggest getting E111's as a contingency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Fitzsie Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Thanks for everyones input. Quillan, I really feel for your friends and I hope that since that posting their situation has improved. My partner is not eligible for state pension so I guess we will need the E121. Can I just confirm that this is the only form that CPAM will accept to be part of the French healthcare system? Then once this is accepted we will need to take out the top up insurance. Having read the previous posting on this , that seems to be another minefield!! We have been recommended to use the insurence offered by our bank - Bank Agricole. Is this a good move?Judging by the length of time it takes the DWP to work we will be definitely still be taking the E111 but I would emphasise that this is purely as an emergency measure until we are all legal etc. We do want to do everything by the book. It's not worth the hassle in future years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Quillan Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 [quote]Thanks for everyones input. Quillan, I really feel for your friends and I hope that since that posting their situation has improved. My partner is not eligible for state pension so I guess we will n...[/quote]Sorry I seem to have confused you a bit. As he is not drawing a state pension he will require an E106 NOT an E121.The reason many ask for a E106 at an early stage is because it can take some time arrive however it just depends. I Know of some who have received theirs in weeks when others have taken months. Some people say the longer you wait the greater the chance of getting one.To join CPAM and assuming you hold UK passports then you will need the following.:E106Both birth certificatesMarriage certificate (if applicable)Letter from mayor stating when you took up residency in FranceAn official bill like an electricity billIn the event that you are refused an E106 then it makes it easier if you have written to Newcastle and asked them the specific reason why you have been refused and have received a reply (they will of course tell you over the phone but it's better in writing). This should then be translated in to French. If you don't have this then you can write your own letter, in French, as to why you were refused. I did my own and used about 4 short sentences as my French at the time was worse than it is now.I got my number in about 3 weeks and my Carte Vital in 7 to 8 weeks.Unfortunately there is no uniformity in France, I got mine quick, others have taken a long time, it really depends on where you live in France.Good luck - any further problems try Peter Owen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Fitzsie Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Thanks for everything. I did understand all you had said, I had a brief senior moment and typed in the wrong numbers! Thxs again.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Owen Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Hello I1, Your conceptual approach to complementary insurance is faulty. You are getting bogged down with such factors as the respective operating expenses of a "mutuelle" and a commercial insurer. You seem to have come to the general conclusion that "mutuelles" are better because they are non-profit making outfits. If that was the reality commercial insurers would not be in the market at all. Having accepted that in France you have to make a personal contribution to your healthcare then you have to judge how you fund it. Most French residents have a complementary insurance. You have to decide is to what extent such insurance should cover your health costs after the contribution by CPAM. You may even want to fund any difference out of your own pocket and avoid any complementary insurance premiums at all. But assuming that you do require some sort of insurance then shop around - there are bags of providers - "mutuelles" and commercial insurers. Quillan probably has a "mutuelle", I have a commercial insurer. We have made our choices, which are appropriate to our needs, not because either type of provider is intrinsically better because of different legislation under which they are regulated. RegardsPeter Owen[email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... I1 Posted November 1, 2004 Author Share Posted November 1, 2004 “Your conceptual approach to complementary insurance is faulty."You are probably quote correct in this comment as I often look to "how people make money" and how much money they are making and this is probably what is driving my questions. I suppose I'm thinking along the lines of overheads and profits rather than the specific market places they are operating in and as you say the regulations they are operating under. I was not aware of the regulatory aspects and am probably thinking too simplistically.A bit like the "Building Society" vs. "Bank". I suppose a Building society was a Mutual Society and profits were effectively passed to the members. However, when the Building societies became Banks and had to pay out dividends and make profits, they had to keep their rates competitive (probably a bad analogy).It will probably be a few weeks until I register with CPAM and I do have time to look around.Many thanks to all for their helpful comments. I really was not even aware that there were different types of organisation, that some treatments were changed at above the CPAM listed rate, etc. Many thanks for your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Will Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 You are so right in that you cannot be simplistic about this subject. Wherever you look there are contradictions and inconsistencies. For instance, as a travailleur independante I'm nothing to do with the local CPAM any longer (I was when I counted as a migrant worker...). Instead, I had the choice of about four organismes conventionées - the one I went with, for no particular reason, was Mutuelle de L'Est. Now that's an equivalent to CPAM, and it issues my carte vitale: it's not a mutuelle as discussed here, though it's organised, as far as I know, on mutuelle lines. So I still need a top up policy, and we are with AGF, a commercial organisation, which contrary to popular belief is not necessarily dearer or less flexible or less efficient than a mutuelle.Sorry if I have muddied the waters even further, but I just wanted to highlight how easy it is to make misleading assumptions about this very complicated topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... I1 Posted November 3, 2004 Author Share Posted November 3, 2004 I had read that when not covered by “paperwork” from the UK (E106 or E121) and not working in France, one had two options – either start contributing to French NI through voluntary contributions (and presumably get CPAM cover) or take out your own health insurance (and that the latter may be lower cost). "Will the …", am I right in assuming that this is what you have done when you talk about being a travailleur independent and using a organismes conventionées. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Will Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 'Fraid not - travailleur independant is really the equivalent of being self employed in France, so you don't get a choice - you have to contribute to the system, while organisme conventionéee is the organisation that handles your helath cover - be it CPAM (for most people) or Mutuelle de l'Est (in my case) or some other outfit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... 4 weeks later... Grateloube Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 HiCan anyone helpMy husband and I are coming to France in June 2005 for 6 months to renovate our house returning to England for 1 week at the 3 months stage and then coming back for a further 3 months. We will be bringing our 10 week old baby.We need to get some sort of health cover that will cover absolutely everything especially with a young baby, and not just emergencies as with the E111 form, but I'm not sure where to start.We won't be working whilst in France and as visiting in 2 sets of 3 month breaks won't be registering as residents.Can anyone suggest a company to try please?ThanksMassons & huge bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Will Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 I assume you are currently UK residents. I'm not quite sure what is behind the 'registering as residents' reference as the need to do this has been abolished for citizens of other EU states. Also the E111 is being replaced by a 'European Health Card', France is now issuing these although UK is in a transitory state. Under the revised system E111 or the equivalent card may be sufficient for you.However, if you or anybody else coming to France need full health cover, you need to get into the French system if possible. You need to contact Pensions and Overseas Benefits Directorate, Benefits Agency, DSS, Newcastle upon Tyne, NL91BA. Tel: 0191 218 7777, to see if you are entitled to an E106 form. The E106 will entitle you to enter the French health system. When you get to France take E106 along to your local CPAM office, with birth certificates, marriage certificates, French bank details, proof of identity (passport) and proof of address (French utility bill); this will start the process. If you are not entitled to E106, get this in writing from Newcastle and take this letter to CPAM - you may still be entitled to enter the French system or if not you may be able to take out private health insurance (which you can't do if you can be covered by the French system).You will be issued with a social security number (temporary number at first). Once you have that number you can claim reimbursement of, for example, 70% of doctor's fees, 65% or 35% of medications. With a SS number you can take out top-up insurance which will refund the other 30%/35%/65%.That's a very simplified summary of what I am sure you have realised is a complex subject. CPAMs are organised on a regional basis, and procedures, requirements, etc can vary so you might find differences - for example you may need more documentation, or need to provide certified translations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Grateloube Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Thank you for the very useful advise on this rather confusing subject.I will contact the Pensions and Overseas benefit Dept. as you suggest. If we eventually need the top up insurance as you state, will we be advised in France where to get this from, or will we need to contact a company in the UK?Thanks Masson's & bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Owen Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Hello,It can be a confusing subject. Before you contact the DWP in Newcastle upon Tyne I would advise you that on applying for E106 you are also stating that you are shedding UK residence to live in another EU state. This has obvious implications not least of all that you will no longer be entitled to treatment under the NHS. And from your post it does not seem that you actually want to give up UK residence.RegardsPeter Owen[email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... I1 Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 There is also possibly something else you might need to consider in your planned visit – that of domicile. Others here know much more about it than I do, but it may be that if you spend more than 183 days in France (irrespective of any short breaks part way through), then you may be considered to be domiciled in France and thus due to pay income tax, etc. in France. I believe there are quite a few aspects to domicile so it is may not clear cut (particularly when you have two homes).However, if it is briefly only a short time over, then “who would know”.I may be wrong on this so would certainly invite people to correct things I may be wrong about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Will Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Domicile and residence are two very different things where tax is concerned. Domicile depends on many factors and is something that doesn't change, at least not quickly, while residence can change all the time - in fact you can be resident, fiscally, in several countries at the same time. As far as France is concerned, if you want to avoid being classed as resident it is not sufficient to spend at least half the tax year elsewhere. France can class you as resident if, among other things, your main home is in France, if your family lives in France, or your main economic activity is carried out in France (regardless of where, and in what currency, you are paid).Having said that, it is not necessarily a bad thing to be tax resident in France. Unless you are a very high earner, you are unlikely to pay significantly more income tax overall than you would in UK, and it can help you avoid capital gains tax should you ever sell your French house. Because of the dual taxation treaty with UK, you will not, under normal circumstances, have to pay tax on any single source of income in more than one country. If you have a lot of unearned income though, for example, you should certainly take professional advice.Peter Owen's advice on health care is good - remember of course as soon as you take up residence again in UK you should be eligible for NHS treatment, so you need to consider how best to cover yourselves while living in France and/or temporarily in UK. The big problems arise when you lose entitlement to free UK NHS treatment through non-residence but do not join the system in the country in which you live. The NHS is, understandably, trying to stop people retiring overseas and returning to UK in case of illness just to get free health care because they haven't joined any overseas system. It's not a case, as the sensationalist tabloids would have it, of people who have paid into the UK system for all their working lives then being denied their rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... BJSLIV Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 GrateloubI think you need to make it a little clearer what you a trying to achieve, because the answers will be different in each case.Given your comment that you are returning for a week, and hence will not be registering (which isn't now necessary anyway) , you will be staying in France covered by an e111.This means that you will be covered for emergencies, subject to paying whatever contributions a French resident would make for the same treatment. Now if you are currently pregnant (the lump) and something unexpected happened, then I guess you would be covered, but would have to pay something as it wouldn' be covered by any normal holiday insurance ,which is the normal top-up that people coming and going to France take out.If you go down the e106 route that implies that you are leaving the UK for good, will have the baby in France , and would only be entitled to emergency treatment back in the UK. In addition you woul not be able to take out top-up cover to cover the existing condition so would still end up paying.Hope you get the drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Grateloube Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 HiNo we don't intend to live in France permanently, and wont be staying more than 183 days. To be more precise I am having a baby in March and taking approx 8 months off work on maternity leave. To take full advantage of the time off my husband and I want to visit our house in France to do some renovation, we will have no income France or UK and will be living from savings we may only stay 4 months in total dependant on how long the money lastsWe have E111 forms which are ok for us but I am worried that if several niggly problems with the new baby arise which are not covered by the E111 we could be left with huge bills. Based on the info given so far, it sounds as if we can't apply for the E106 as we are only visiting for a holiday. In which case would it be best just to take the E111's covering the baby as well and just pay as and when we needed to visit Dr's etc?Thanks everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Owen Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Hello, There is not a perfect solution to your situation but probably the best bet is to obtain a copy of the new E111 from a UK Post Office. The old E111 only covered emergency or "immediately necessary" treatment. The new E111 will cover "necessary" treatment, which implies that a broader scope of treatment will be covered. Indeed this is the intention and is a further welcome step in furthering greater freedom of movement throughout the EU. The E111 will be valid for a maximum of six months so splitting your stay in France with a week in the UK fits quite nicely. The new E111 will be valid until 31 December 2005. The old one had indefinite validity but was sometimes not accepted in France if it was more than a year old. However E111 will only entitle you to the same rights as a French resident and that means a personal contribution will be required to "top up" the difference between state cover and the total bill. For this reason most French residents take out a complementary insurance to cover the difference. However most providers insist that you are affiliated into the French system and require a copy of your "attestation" to CPAM, which includes your French social security number. You will not be able to provide this because it is not your intention to become a permanent resident of France. However, although most providers insist on this proof, there are a few providers about who should be able to fix you up. There are 2 disadvantages. If the E111 was not accepted for some treatment and the CPAM did not pay their share, the insurance would not pay out either. The risk of this is now greatly diminished with the new E111. And secondly you would probably have to pay a full years premium even though you will require only 6 months of cover. But premiums for a complementary insurance are far less than a full private insurance.RegardsPeter Owen[email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... 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Fitzsie Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 Quillan, you seem to know a great deal about this subject so I am hoping you can help me as well. As time goes by we seem to be getting so much information about what we should do for healthcare that I am starting to feel really confused about it all. Our circumstances are that my partner and I are moving to France at the end of the month and purely as a temporary measure we are applying for the E111. He is at retirement age (60 years), however I am quite a few years younger (so no retirement for me yet!!). In simple terms, if possible, what should we be doing with regard with healthcare as soon as we arrive in France? There is reasonable pension coming in but we are not hugely wealthy Any help gratefully received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 [quote]Quillan, you seem to know a great deal about this subject so I am hoping you can help me as well. As time goes by we seem to be getting so much information about what we should do for healthcare that ...[/quote]Unfortunatly I am not an expert in these matters, Peter Owen is your man. What I can tell you is that (and Peter would say the same) sorting out the UK end of your health cover before you come should be at the top of your list and heavily underlined. Please read the information in the French Health System FAQ’s part of this forum. You might like to read my post, link below, which shows what can happen if you don’t get it right. http://www.livingfrance.com/instantforum/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=20&MessageID=2239 At 60 I believe he is not eligible for State Pension in the UK, that being the case he is not eligible for an E121. Both of you should apply to the Department of Works and Pensions in Newcastle for an E106. It is important that even if you think you are not eligible for an E106 you still apply as you will require the letter of refusal from them to help enter the system in France. If you are refused an E106 it might pay you to write and ask the specific reason you have been refused. I say this because my letter was a computer jobby and it just said something like “you have been refused for any one or combination or all of the three reasons stated below”. The normal eligibility for an E106 is that you have been in full time employment for the last 2 years preferably paying PAYE or/and a class 1 stamp. The reason for you both applying for an E106 is that if one is refused and the other not the one that is refused can also use the others E106 if your status is married (to each other). You said you will be moving to and living in France therefore an E111 is of no use whatsoever you must apply to join the French system when you arrive. If your partner will be drawing a private pension he will have to declare this for both tax and cotistations (French word for NI contributions). “Ah but I’m paying tax in the UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... I1 Posted October 30, 2004 Author Share Posted October 30, 2004 I almost certainly did everything wrong, so my experience below is in no way contradicting what others have said, nor making any recommendations. Also, I'm not complaining about e.g. Newcastle.Before moving I applied for my E106. Unfortunately, it took so long to come in that I had moved long before it ended-up arriving (be aware it can take some time -3 or 4 months in my case). Thus, before moving to get some cover I got an E111..I then went to register with CPAM and they rejected the E106 because a) My address was wrong (i.e. my old UK address) and b) The DWP ? had made a typo' in the "valid from" date and it didn't start cover until 1/Jan/2005. The wrong address was not much of an issue and had that been the only thing then it would not have been a problem.However, I needed to see a doctor and asked them what I should do. They asked if I had an E111 (which I did) and they said I should use that. I have read somewhere that the UK were starting to fine people for "invalid use" of an E111. Maybe whoever wrong it was wrong but I raised this with CPAM and they said that as they were refunding my costs under the E111, it had nothing to do with UK authorities. CPAM were very helpful, “down to earth”, etc. which came as quite a shock after my (limited) experiences with the UK authorities.I sent back my "faulty" E106 with a covering letter asking a replacement could now be treated as urgent. A replacement then took 3 months (at least) to arrive.If you do not have all the paperwork you need (E106, E121, whatever) when you actually move I would suggest getting E111's as a contingency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Fitzsie Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Thanks for everyones input. Quillan, I really feel for your friends and I hope that since that posting their situation has improved. My partner is not eligible for state pension so I guess we will need the E121. Can I just confirm that this is the only form that CPAM will accept to be part of the French healthcare system? Then once this is accepted we will need to take out the top up insurance. Having read the previous posting on this , that seems to be another minefield!! We have been recommended to use the insurence offered by our bank - Bank Agricole. Is this a good move?Judging by the length of time it takes the DWP to work we will be definitely still be taking the E111 but I would emphasise that this is purely as an emergency measure until we are all legal etc. We do want to do everything by the book. It's not worth the hassle in future years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Quillan Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 [quote]Thanks for everyones input. Quillan, I really feel for your friends and I hope that since that posting their situation has improved. My partner is not eligible for state pension so I guess we will n...[/quote]Sorry I seem to have confused you a bit. As he is not drawing a state pension he will require an E106 NOT an E121.The reason many ask for a E106 at an early stage is because it can take some time arrive however it just depends. I Know of some who have received theirs in weeks when others have taken months. Some people say the longer you wait the greater the chance of getting one.To join CPAM and assuming you hold UK passports then you will need the following.:E106Both birth certificatesMarriage certificate (if applicable)Letter from mayor stating when you took up residency in FranceAn official bill like an electricity billIn the event that you are refused an E106 then it makes it easier if you have written to Newcastle and asked them the specific reason why you have been refused and have received a reply (they will of course tell you over the phone but it's better in writing). This should then be translated in to French. If you don't have this then you can write your own letter, in French, as to why you were refused. I did my own and used about 4 short sentences as my French at the time was worse than it is now.I got my number in about 3 weeks and my Carte Vital in 7 to 8 weeks.Unfortunately there is no uniformity in France, I got mine quick, others have taken a long time, it really depends on where you live in France.Good luck - any further problems try Peter Owen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Fitzsie Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Thanks for everything. I did understand all you had said, I had a brief senior moment and typed in the wrong numbers! Thxs again.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Owen Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Hello I1, Your conceptual approach to complementary insurance is faulty. You are getting bogged down with such factors as the respective operating expenses of a "mutuelle" and a commercial insurer. You seem to have come to the general conclusion that "mutuelles" are better because they are non-profit making outfits. If that was the reality commercial insurers would not be in the market at all. Having accepted that in France you have to make a personal contribution to your healthcare then you have to judge how you fund it. Most French residents have a complementary insurance. You have to decide is to what extent such insurance should cover your health costs after the contribution by CPAM. You may even want to fund any difference out of your own pocket and avoid any complementary insurance premiums at all. But assuming that you do require some sort of insurance then shop around - there are bags of providers - "mutuelles" and commercial insurers. Quillan probably has a "mutuelle", I have a commercial insurer. We have made our choices, which are appropriate to our needs, not because either type of provider is intrinsically better because of different legislation under which they are regulated. RegardsPeter Owen[email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... I1 Posted November 1, 2004 Author Share Posted November 1, 2004 “Your conceptual approach to complementary insurance is faulty."You are probably quote correct in this comment as I often look to "how people make money" and how much money they are making and this is probably what is driving my questions. I suppose I'm thinking along the lines of overheads and profits rather than the specific market places they are operating in and as you say the regulations they are operating under. I was not aware of the regulatory aspects and am probably thinking too simplistically.A bit like the "Building Society" vs. "Bank". I suppose a Building society was a Mutual Society and profits were effectively passed to the members. However, when the Building societies became Banks and had to pay out dividends and make profits, they had to keep their rates competitive (probably a bad analogy).It will probably be a few weeks until I register with CPAM and I do have time to look around.Many thanks to all for their helpful comments. I really was not even aware that there were different types of organisation, that some treatments were changed at above the CPAM listed rate, etc. Many thanks for your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Will Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 You are so right in that you cannot be simplistic about this subject. Wherever you look there are contradictions and inconsistencies. For instance, as a travailleur independante I'm nothing to do with the local CPAM any longer (I was when I counted as a migrant worker...). Instead, I had the choice of about four organismes conventionées - the one I went with, for no particular reason, was Mutuelle de L'Est. Now that's an equivalent to CPAM, and it issues my carte vitale: it's not a mutuelle as discussed here, though it's organised, as far as I know, on mutuelle lines. So I still need a top up policy, and we are with AGF, a commercial organisation, which contrary to popular belief is not necessarily dearer or less flexible or less efficient than a mutuelle.Sorry if I have muddied the waters even further, but I just wanted to highlight how easy it is to make misleading assumptions about this very complicated topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... I1 Posted November 3, 2004 Author Share Posted November 3, 2004 I had read that when not covered by “paperwork” from the UK (E106 or E121) and not working in France, one had two options – either start contributing to French NI through voluntary contributions (and presumably get CPAM cover) or take out your own health insurance (and that the latter may be lower cost). "Will the …", am I right in assuming that this is what you have done when you talk about being a travailleur independent and using a organismes conventionées. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Will Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 'Fraid not - travailleur independant is really the equivalent of being self employed in France, so you don't get a choice - you have to contribute to the system, while organisme conventionéee is the organisation that handles your helath cover - be it CPAM (for most people) or Mutuelle de l'Est (in my case) or some other outfit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... 4 weeks later... Grateloube Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 HiCan anyone helpMy husband and I are coming to France in June 2005 for 6 months to renovate our house returning to England for 1 week at the 3 months stage and then coming back for a further 3 months. We will be bringing our 10 week old baby.We need to get some sort of health cover that will cover absolutely everything especially with a young baby, and not just emergencies as with the E111 form, but I'm not sure where to start.We won't be working whilst in France and as visiting in 2 sets of 3 month breaks won't be registering as residents.Can anyone suggest a company to try please?ThanksMassons & huge bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Will Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 I assume you are currently UK residents. I'm not quite sure what is behind the 'registering as residents' reference as the need to do this has been abolished for citizens of other EU states. Also the E111 is being replaced by a 'European Health Card', France is now issuing these although UK is in a transitory state. Under the revised system E111 or the equivalent card may be sufficient for you.However, if you or anybody else coming to France need full health cover, you need to get into the French system if possible. You need to contact Pensions and Overseas Benefits Directorate, Benefits Agency, DSS, Newcastle upon Tyne, NL91BA. Tel: 0191 218 7777, to see if you are entitled to an E106 form. The E106 will entitle you to enter the French health system. When you get to France take E106 along to your local CPAM office, with birth certificates, marriage certificates, French bank details, proof of identity (passport) and proof of address (French utility bill); this will start the process. If you are not entitled to E106, get this in writing from Newcastle and take this letter to CPAM - you may still be entitled to enter the French system or if not you may be able to take out private health insurance (which you can't do if you can be covered by the French system).You will be issued with a social security number (temporary number at first). Once you have that number you can claim reimbursement of, for example, 70% of doctor's fees, 65% or 35% of medications. With a SS number you can take out top-up insurance which will refund the other 30%/35%/65%.That's a very simplified summary of what I am sure you have realised is a complex subject. CPAMs are organised on a regional basis, and procedures, requirements, etc can vary so you might find differences - for example you may need more documentation, or need to provide certified translations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Grateloube Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Thank you for the very useful advise on this rather confusing subject.I will contact the Pensions and Overseas benefit Dept. as you suggest. If we eventually need the top up insurance as you state, will we be advised in France where to get this from, or will we need to contact a company in the UK?Thanks Masson's & bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Owen Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Hello,It can be a confusing subject. Before you contact the DWP in Newcastle upon Tyne I would advise you that on applying for E106 you are also stating that you are shedding UK residence to live in another EU state. This has obvious implications not least of all that you will no longer be entitled to treatment under the NHS. And from your post it does not seem that you actually want to give up UK residence.RegardsPeter Owen[email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... I1 Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 There is also possibly something else you might need to consider in your planned visit – that of domicile. Others here know much more about it than I do, but it may be that if you spend more than 183 days in France (irrespective of any short breaks part way through), then you may be considered to be domiciled in France and thus due to pay income tax, etc. in France. I believe there are quite a few aspects to domicile so it is may not clear cut (particularly when you have two homes).However, if it is briefly only a short time over, then “who would know”.I may be wrong on this so would certainly invite people to correct things I may be wrong about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Will Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Domicile and residence are two very different things where tax is concerned. Domicile depends on many factors and is something that doesn't change, at least not quickly, while residence can change all the time - in fact you can be resident, fiscally, in several countries at the same time. As far as France is concerned, if you want to avoid being classed as resident it is not sufficient to spend at least half the tax year elsewhere. France can class you as resident if, among other things, your main home is in France, if your family lives in France, or your main economic activity is carried out in France (regardless of where, and in what currency, you are paid).Having said that, it is not necessarily a bad thing to be tax resident in France. Unless you are a very high earner, you are unlikely to pay significantly more income tax overall than you would in UK, and it can help you avoid capital gains tax should you ever sell your French house. Because of the dual taxation treaty with UK, you will not, under normal circumstances, have to pay tax on any single source of income in more than one country. If you have a lot of unearned income though, for example, you should certainly take professional advice.Peter Owen's advice on health care is good - remember of course as soon as you take up residence again in UK you should be eligible for NHS treatment, so you need to consider how best to cover yourselves while living in France and/or temporarily in UK. The big problems arise when you lose entitlement to free UK NHS treatment through non-residence but do not join the system in the country in which you live. The NHS is, understandably, trying to stop people retiring overseas and returning to UK in case of illness just to get free health care because they haven't joined any overseas system. It's not a case, as the sensationalist tabloids would have it, of people who have paid into the UK system for all their working lives then being denied their rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... BJSLIV Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 GrateloubI think you need to make it a little clearer what you a trying to achieve, because the answers will be different in each case.Given your comment that you are returning for a week, and hence will not be registering (which isn't now necessary anyway) , you will be staying in France covered by an e111.This means that you will be covered for emergencies, subject to paying whatever contributions a French resident would make for the same treatment. Now if you are currently pregnant (the lump) and something unexpected happened, then I guess you would be covered, but would have to pay something as it wouldn' be covered by any normal holiday insurance ,which is the normal top-up that people coming and going to France take out.If you go down the e106 route that implies that you are leaving the UK for good, will have the baby in France , and would only be entitled to emergency treatment back in the UK. In addition you woul not be able to take out top-up cover to cover the existing condition so would still end up paying.Hope you get the drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Grateloube Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 HiNo we don't intend to live in France permanently, and wont be staying more than 183 days. To be more precise I am having a baby in March and taking approx 8 months off work on maternity leave. To take full advantage of the time off my husband and I want to visit our house in France to do some renovation, we will have no income France or UK and will be living from savings we may only stay 4 months in total dependant on how long the money lastsWe have E111 forms which are ok for us but I am worried that if several niggly problems with the new baby arise which are not covered by the E111 we could be left with huge bills. Based on the info given so far, it sounds as if we can't apply for the E106 as we are only visiting for a holiday. In which case would it be best just to take the E111's covering the baby as well and just pay as and when we needed to visit Dr's etc?Thanks everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Owen Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Hello, There is not a perfect solution to your situation but probably the best bet is to obtain a copy of the new E111 from a UK Post Office. The old E111 only covered emergency or "immediately necessary" treatment. The new E111 will cover "necessary" treatment, which implies that a broader scope of treatment will be covered. Indeed this is the intention and is a further welcome step in furthering greater freedom of movement throughout the EU. The E111 will be valid for a maximum of six months so splitting your stay in France with a week in the UK fits quite nicely. The new E111 will be valid until 31 December 2005. The old one had indefinite validity but was sometimes not accepted in France if it was more than a year old. However E111 will only entitle you to the same rights as a French resident and that means a personal contribution will be required to "top up" the difference between state cover and the total bill. For this reason most French residents take out a complementary insurance to cover the difference. However most providers insist that you are affiliated into the French system and require a copy of your "attestation" to CPAM, which includes your French social security number. You will not be able to provide this because it is not your intention to become a permanent resident of France. However, although most providers insist on this proof, there are a few providers about who should be able to fix you up. There are 2 disadvantages. If the E111 was not accepted for some treatment and the CPAM did not pay their share, the insurance would not pay out either. The risk of this is now greatly diminished with the new E111. And secondly you would probably have to pay a full years premium even though you will require only 6 months of cover. But premiums for a complementary insurance are far less than a full private insurance.RegardsPeter Owen[email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... 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I1 Posted October 30, 2004 Author Share Posted October 30, 2004 I almost certainly did everything wrong, so my experience below is in no way contradicting what others have said, nor making any recommendations. Also, I'm not complaining about e.g. Newcastle.Before moving I applied for my E106. Unfortunately, it took so long to come in that I had moved long before it ended-up arriving (be aware it can take some time -3 or 4 months in my case). Thus, before moving to get some cover I got an E111..I then went to register with CPAM and they rejected the E106 because a) My address was wrong (i.e. my old UK address) and b) The DWP ? had made a typo' in the "valid from" date and it didn't start cover until 1/Jan/2005. The wrong address was not much of an issue and had that been the only thing then it would not have been a problem.However, I needed to see a doctor and asked them what I should do. They asked if I had an E111 (which I did) and they said I should use that. I have read somewhere that the UK were starting to fine people for "invalid use" of an E111. Maybe whoever wrong it was wrong but I raised this with CPAM and they said that as they were refunding my costs under the E111, it had nothing to do with UK authorities. CPAM were very helpful, “down to earth”, etc. which came as quite a shock after my (limited) experiences with the UK authorities.I sent back my "faulty" E106 with a covering letter asking a replacement could now be treated as urgent. A replacement then took 3 months (at least) to arrive.If you do not have all the paperwork you need (E106, E121, whatever) when you actually move I would suggest getting E111's as a contingency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzsie Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Thanks for everyones input. Quillan, I really feel for your friends and I hope that since that posting their situation has improved. My partner is not eligible for state pension so I guess we will need the E121. Can I just confirm that this is the only form that CPAM will accept to be part of the French healthcare system? Then once this is accepted we will need to take out the top up insurance. Having read the previous posting on this , that seems to be another minefield!! We have been recommended to use the insurence offered by our bank - Bank Agricole. Is this a good move?Judging by the length of time it takes the DWP to work we will be definitely still be taking the E111 but I would emphasise that this is purely as an emergency measure until we are all legal etc. We do want to do everything by the book. It's not worth the hassle in future years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 [quote]Thanks for everyones input. Quillan, I really feel for your friends and I hope that since that posting their situation has improved. My partner is not eligible for state pension so I guess we will n...[/quote]Sorry I seem to have confused you a bit. As he is not drawing a state pension he will require an E106 NOT an E121.The reason many ask for a E106 at an early stage is because it can take some time arrive however it just depends. I Know of some who have received theirs in weeks when others have taken months. Some people say the longer you wait the greater the chance of getting one.To join CPAM and assuming you hold UK passports then you will need the following.:E106Both birth certificatesMarriage certificate (if applicable)Letter from mayor stating when you took up residency in FranceAn official bill like an electricity billIn the event that you are refused an E106 then it makes it easier if you have written to Newcastle and asked them the specific reason why you have been refused and have received a reply (they will of course tell you over the phone but it's better in writing). This should then be translated in to French. If you don't have this then you can write your own letter, in French, as to why you were refused. I did my own and used about 4 short sentences as my French at the time was worse than it is now.I got my number in about 3 weeks and my Carte Vital in 7 to 8 weeks.Unfortunately there is no uniformity in France, I got mine quick, others have taken a long time, it really depends on where you live in France.Good luck - any further problems try Peter Owen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzsie Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Thanks for everything. I did understand all you had said, I had a brief senior moment and typed in the wrong numbers! Thxs again.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Hello I1, Your conceptual approach to complementary insurance is faulty. You are getting bogged down with such factors as the respective operating expenses of a "mutuelle" and a commercial insurer. You seem to have come to the general conclusion that "mutuelles" are better because they are non-profit making outfits. If that was the reality commercial insurers would not be in the market at all. Having accepted that in France you have to make a personal contribution to your healthcare then you have to judge how you fund it. Most French residents have a complementary insurance. You have to decide is to what extent such insurance should cover your health costs after the contribution by CPAM. You may even want to fund any difference out of your own pocket and avoid any complementary insurance premiums at all. But assuming that you do require some sort of insurance then shop around - there are bags of providers - "mutuelles" and commercial insurers. Quillan probably has a "mutuelle", I have a commercial insurer. We have made our choices, which are appropriate to our needs, not because either type of provider is intrinsically better because of different legislation under which they are regulated. RegardsPeter Owen[email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1 Posted November 1, 2004 Author Share Posted November 1, 2004 “Your conceptual approach to complementary insurance is faulty."You are probably quote correct in this comment as I often look to "how people make money" and how much money they are making and this is probably what is driving my questions. I suppose I'm thinking along the lines of overheads and profits rather than the specific market places they are operating in and as you say the regulations they are operating under. I was not aware of the regulatory aspects and am probably thinking too simplistically.A bit like the "Building Society" vs. "Bank". I suppose a Building society was a Mutual Society and profits were effectively passed to the members. However, when the Building societies became Banks and had to pay out dividends and make profits, they had to keep their rates competitive (probably a bad analogy).It will probably be a few weeks until I register with CPAM and I do have time to look around.Many thanks to all for their helpful comments. I really was not even aware that there were different types of organisation, that some treatments were changed at above the CPAM listed rate, etc. Many thanks for your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 You are so right in that you cannot be simplistic about this subject. Wherever you look there are contradictions and inconsistencies. For instance, as a travailleur independante I'm nothing to do with the local CPAM any longer (I was when I counted as a migrant worker...). Instead, I had the choice of about four organismes conventionées - the one I went with, for no particular reason, was Mutuelle de L'Est. Now that's an equivalent to CPAM, and it issues my carte vitale: it's not a mutuelle as discussed here, though it's organised, as far as I know, on mutuelle lines. So I still need a top up policy, and we are with AGF, a commercial organisation, which contrary to popular belief is not necessarily dearer or less flexible or less efficient than a mutuelle.Sorry if I have muddied the waters even further, but I just wanted to highlight how easy it is to make misleading assumptions about this very complicated topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1 Posted November 3, 2004 Author Share Posted November 3, 2004 I had read that when not covered by “paperwork” from the UK (E106 or E121) and not working in France, one had two options – either start contributing to French NI through voluntary contributions (and presumably get CPAM cover) or take out your own health insurance (and that the latter may be lower cost). "Will the …", am I right in assuming that this is what you have done when you talk about being a travailleur independent and using a organismes conventionées. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 'Fraid not - travailleur independant is really the equivalent of being self employed in France, so you don't get a choice - you have to contribute to the system, while organisme conventionéee is the organisation that handles your helath cover - be it CPAM (for most people) or Mutuelle de l'Est (in my case) or some other outfit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grateloube Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 HiCan anyone helpMy husband and I are coming to France in June 2005 for 6 months to renovate our house returning to England for 1 week at the 3 months stage and then coming back for a further 3 months. We will be bringing our 10 week old baby.We need to get some sort of health cover that will cover absolutely everything especially with a young baby, and not just emergencies as with the E111 form, but I'm not sure where to start.We won't be working whilst in France and as visiting in 2 sets of 3 month breaks won't be registering as residents.Can anyone suggest a company to try please?ThanksMassons & huge bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 I assume you are currently UK residents. I'm not quite sure what is behind the 'registering as residents' reference as the need to do this has been abolished for citizens of other EU states. Also the E111 is being replaced by a 'European Health Card', France is now issuing these although UK is in a transitory state. Under the revised system E111 or the equivalent card may be sufficient for you.However, if you or anybody else coming to France need full health cover, you need to get into the French system if possible. You need to contact Pensions and Overseas Benefits Directorate, Benefits Agency, DSS, Newcastle upon Tyne, NL91BA. Tel: 0191 218 7777, to see if you are entitled to an E106 form. The E106 will entitle you to enter the French health system. When you get to France take E106 along to your local CPAM office, with birth certificates, marriage certificates, French bank details, proof of identity (passport) and proof of address (French utility bill); this will start the process. If you are not entitled to E106, get this in writing from Newcastle and take this letter to CPAM - you may still be entitled to enter the French system or if not you may be able to take out private health insurance (which you can't do if you can be covered by the French system).You will be issued with a social security number (temporary number at first). Once you have that number you can claim reimbursement of, for example, 70% of doctor's fees, 65% or 35% of medications. With a SS number you can take out top-up insurance which will refund the other 30%/35%/65%.That's a very simplified summary of what I am sure you have realised is a complex subject. CPAMs are organised on a regional basis, and procedures, requirements, etc can vary so you might find differences - for example you may need more documentation, or need to provide certified translations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grateloube Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Thank you for the very useful advise on this rather confusing subject.I will contact the Pensions and Overseas benefit Dept. as you suggest. If we eventually need the top up insurance as you state, will we be advised in France where to get this from, or will we need to contact a company in the UK?Thanks Masson's & bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Hello,It can be a confusing subject. Before you contact the DWP in Newcastle upon Tyne I would advise you that on applying for E106 you are also stating that you are shedding UK residence to live in another EU state. This has obvious implications not least of all that you will no longer be entitled to treatment under the NHS. And from your post it does not seem that you actually want to give up UK residence.RegardsPeter Owen[email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1 Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 There is also possibly something else you might need to consider in your planned visit – that of domicile. Others here know much more about it than I do, but it may be that if you spend more than 183 days in France (irrespective of any short breaks part way through), then you may be considered to be domiciled in France and thus due to pay income tax, etc. in France. I believe there are quite a few aspects to domicile so it is may not clear cut (particularly when you have two homes).However, if it is briefly only a short time over, then “who would know”.I may be wrong on this so would certainly invite people to correct things I may be wrong about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Domicile and residence are two very different things where tax is concerned. Domicile depends on many factors and is something that doesn't change, at least not quickly, while residence can change all the time - in fact you can be resident, fiscally, in several countries at the same time. As far as France is concerned, if you want to avoid being classed as resident it is not sufficient to spend at least half the tax year elsewhere. France can class you as resident if, among other things, your main home is in France, if your family lives in France, or your main economic activity is carried out in France (regardless of where, and in what currency, you are paid).Having said that, it is not necessarily a bad thing to be tax resident in France. Unless you are a very high earner, you are unlikely to pay significantly more income tax overall than you would in UK, and it can help you avoid capital gains tax should you ever sell your French house. Because of the dual taxation treaty with UK, you will not, under normal circumstances, have to pay tax on any single source of income in more than one country. If you have a lot of unearned income though, for example, you should certainly take professional advice.Peter Owen's advice on health care is good - remember of course as soon as you take up residence again in UK you should be eligible for NHS treatment, so you need to consider how best to cover yourselves while living in France and/or temporarily in UK. The big problems arise when you lose entitlement to free UK NHS treatment through non-residence but do not join the system in the country in which you live. The NHS is, understandably, trying to stop people retiring overseas and returning to UK in case of illness just to get free health care because they haven't joined any overseas system. It's not a case, as the sensationalist tabloids would have it, of people who have paid into the UK system for all their working lives then being denied their rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 GrateloubI think you need to make it a little clearer what you a trying to achieve, because the answers will be different in each case.Given your comment that you are returning for a week, and hence will not be registering (which isn't now necessary anyway) , you will be staying in France covered by an e111.This means that you will be covered for emergencies, subject to paying whatever contributions a French resident would make for the same treatment. Now if you are currently pregnant (the lump) and something unexpected happened, then I guess you would be covered, but would have to pay something as it wouldn' be covered by any normal holiday insurance ,which is the normal top-up that people coming and going to France take out.If you go down the e106 route that implies that you are leaving the UK for good, will have the baby in France , and would only be entitled to emergency treatment back in the UK. In addition you woul not be able to take out top-up cover to cover the existing condition so would still end up paying.Hope you get the drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grateloube Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 HiNo we don't intend to live in France permanently, and wont be staying more than 183 days. To be more precise I am having a baby in March and taking approx 8 months off work on maternity leave. To take full advantage of the time off my husband and I want to visit our house in France to do some renovation, we will have no income France or UK and will be living from savings we may only stay 4 months in total dependant on how long the money lastsWe have E111 forms which are ok for us but I am worried that if several niggly problems with the new baby arise which are not covered by the E111 we could be left with huge bills. Based on the info given so far, it sounds as if we can't apply for the E106 as we are only visiting for a holiday. In which case would it be best just to take the E111's covering the baby as well and just pay as and when we needed to visit Dr's etc?Thanks everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Hello, There is not a perfect solution to your situation but probably the best bet is to obtain a copy of the new E111 from a UK Post Office. The old E111 only covered emergency or "immediately necessary" treatment. The new E111 will cover "necessary" treatment, which implies that a broader scope of treatment will be covered. Indeed this is the intention and is a further welcome step in furthering greater freedom of movement throughout the EU. The E111 will be valid for a maximum of six months so splitting your stay in France with a week in the UK fits quite nicely. The new E111 will be valid until 31 December 2005. The old one had indefinite validity but was sometimes not accepted in France if it was more than a year old. However E111 will only entitle you to the same rights as a French resident and that means a personal contribution will be required to "top up" the difference between state cover and the total bill. For this reason most French residents take out a complementary insurance to cover the difference. However most providers insist that you are affiliated into the French system and require a copy of your "attestation" to CPAM, which includes your French social security number. You will not be able to provide this because it is not your intention to become a permanent resident of France. However, although most providers insist on this proof, there are a few providers about who should be able to fix you up. There are 2 disadvantages. If the E111 was not accepted for some treatment and the CPAM did not pay their share, the insurance would not pay out either. The risk of this is now greatly diminished with the new E111. And secondly you would probably have to pay a full years premium even though you will require only 6 months of cover. But premiums for a complementary insurance are far less than a full private insurance.RegardsPeter Owen[email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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