French Healthcare for non EU residents

[Dave]

My wife and I live in the Isle of Man, but have a house in Mayenne which we visit as often as possible, and hope to spend much more time there when we retire. Our problem is that as the IOM is not part of the UK or the EU we have been told that we are not eligible for reciprocal health care in France as we would be if we lived in England (where we were both born). Is this correct, and apart from comprehensive health insurance, is there any way in which we can protect our health needs when visiting our holiday home? Thanks.

[milkeybar kid]

UK born but living on Isle of Man quite definetly means you have to take out private health cover visiting another country you have no eligibility to EHIC (old E111). No other option.

Talk to them in Markwell House they are quite well versed these days and will I think verify also that if you moved to France permanently and only if you have had over 10 years of paying NI in UK ( or it might have been just a greater length of payments in UK compared to IOM contributions) then you would become eligable for E forms , this means in effect your pension etc , etc would come via UK. PM me if you have other queries , but please verify what I have said at Health & Social Security Dept. They have a habit of moving the goal posts!! MBK Good Luck.[:D]

[Gyn_Paul]

[quote user="Dave"]My wife and I live in the Isle of Man, but have a house in Mayenne which we visit as often as possible, and hope to spend much more time there when we retire. Our problem is that as the IOM is not part of the UK or the EU we have been told that we are not eligible for reciprocal health care in France as we would be if we lived in England (where we were both born). Is this correct, and apart from comprehensive health insurance, is there any way in which we can protect our health needs when visiting our holiday home? Thanks.[/quote]

Not the right thread, I know, Dave, but you should also be aware that - like CI residents - your  French property has a different tax status to one owned by a UK resident, and is subject to 'a notional rental tax'  Hope you are on top of this.

p

[Dave]

No - I had no idea. Can you (or anyone else) explain more?

Thanks.

[Sprogster]

Dave,

Firstly, speak to your social security department in the Isle of Man to ask what reciprocal health agreements they have in place with France. For example, Jersey residents visting France are covered for all urgent /emergency health care needs in France on the same basis as a French national, for up to ninety days each trip and this does cover second home owners.

Also if you have worked in the UK and have a history of ten years NI contributions you should be entitled to the E forms.

The other issue concerning a 'notional rental tax' is widely misunderstood, in that it is very rarely enforced as it was only intended that it be used as an anti tax avoidance measure, where the French Fisc believes a foreign property owner resident in a country with whom France does not have a tax treaty, is renting their French property and not disclosing the rental income to the French tax authorities and paying the resulting tax. Even then the notional liability is easily circumvented by owning a French property through an SCI.

Meanwhile, Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man are in the process of negotiating tax information exchange agreements with France, following which this issue, if indeed there is one, should go away. 

[milkeybar kid]

[quote user="milkeybar kid"]

UK born but living on Isle of Man quite definetly means you have to take out private health cover visiting another country you have no eligibility to EHIC (old E111). No other option.

Talk to them in Markwell House they are quite well versed these days and will I think verify also that if you moved to France permanently and only if you have had over 10 years of paying NI in UK ( or it might have been just a greater length of payments in UK compared to IOM contributions) then you would become eligable for E forms , this means in effect your pension etc , etc would come via UK. PM me if you have other queries , but please verify what I have said at Health & Social Security Dept. They have a habit of moving the goal posts!! MBK Good Luck.[:D]

[/quote]

Dave , look at this link and it will show you the list of countries the IOM has a recipricol agreement with as regards holidays abroad, you will see IOM has NO Health  agreement with France.

http://www.gov.im/dhss/health/offisland/travelAdvice.xml

Also remember that your IOM driving liscence is not valid (as a UK liscence would be ) when you come to live here permanent, as it is not an EU liscence. Look for confirmation on internet , its all there . Errr been there and got the T shirt!![blink]

[Dave]

Many thanks for your help, guys.

[cooperlola]

I've kept out of this because we would be very interested to know the answer ourselves for certain.  It seems that if you are not resident here, then travel insurance is your only option, and many companies limit the number of months cover per year.  If you wish to live here, then you must apply for a titre de sejour, as a non-EU national.  Should you be granted one, then you would be allowed into the CMU on the same basis a French national (ie you'd pay 8% of your global income.) That is what we understand.

www.frenchhealthissues.eu

[Sprogster]

Hi cooperlola,

Although Jersey and Guernsey are not a full member of the EU almost all of its residents are still treated as EU Nationals. 

The reason being is that when the United Kingdom joined the EU the deal negotiated for Jersey and Guernsey resulted in any island resident born in the UK, or who has a UK born parent or grandparent, being treated as an EU national by reason that they are categorised as a full British citizen. (The C.I are part of the British Isles but not the UK.)

The vast majority of island residents qualify as EU nationals on the above basis. However, controversially to the very small number of island residents who don't qualify, their British?EU passports are annoted accordingly stating that they do not have right of work and abode in the EU.  

I have no idea if the Isle of Man is in the same situation.

[cooperlola]

Thanks, Sprogster - this makes sense. Of course, it may be preferable to be a non-EU citizen at the moment, in healthcare terms, as those without E forms may turn out to get better treatment than those who have them.  Although I assume that there are many more hoops which one has to jump through to get residency qualifications, if one is not an EU citizen.  Just another of the bizarre scenarios which this new residency legislation is beginning to uncover.

[milkeybar kid]

[quote user="Sprogster"]

Hi cooperlola,

Although Jersey and Guernsey are not a full member of the EU almost all of its residents are still treated as EU Nationals. 

The reason being is that when the United Kingdom joined the EU the deal negotiated for Jersey and Guernsey resulted in any island resident born in the UK, or who has a UK born parent or grandparent, being treated as an EU national by reason that they are categorised as a full British citizen. (The C.I are part of the British Isles but not the UK.)

The vast majority of island residents qualify as EU nationals on the above basis. However, controversially to the very small number of island residents who don't qualify, their British?EU passports are annoted accordingly stating that they do not have right of work and abode in the EU.  

I have no idea if the Isle of Man is in the same situation.

[/quote]

 

Yes, but what is important here, is to remain focused in that -  the IOM is definitely not the same as the Channel Islands  due to the “common purse” arrangements- Various EU “Acts” which when read explains the different relationships.  

 

What is black and white coming to live in France is that if you are Manx born you are classed as from outside the EU. You are not eligible to any E forms whatsoever.

 

If you are coming to live in France and only if you have 10 years or more NI contributions gained in the UK then you are eligible for E forms. The downside is that all your documentation is reverted back to UK ,(as if you never were in the IOM) contributions paid in IOM etc all count, but your state pension will be of the UK level not the extra the IOM gives and you will be excluded from any other IOM perks. (You will have to have signed an agreement that you have given up your residency, this is important as it comes into play further down the line with your income tax etc ).

 

If working in the IOM coming to live in France but are UK born and have not acquired 10 or more years NI contributions you are neither classed as coming from outside the EU not are you eligible for any E forms ( a domino effect comes into play here , every which way you turn you are caught) – the only advantage here is you get the necessary letter from Newcastle stating this and of course you will get the little extra the IOM gives in state pension which will not compensate what you would have gained eventually with eg E121.

 

I hope this has helped clarify some peculiarities and why it is confusing to think of the “offshore Islands” as the same. The above information is a combination of experiences by 3 individual friends from the IOM. I have only brushed the surface but I did not want to cloud the issue. Hope this helps. MBK[:D]

 

 

[Fleur]

We too have found difficulty in explaining that Yes are from the British Isles, but NO we are not English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish. We are not from the Channel Islands or from the UK.

Four years ago were accepted by CMU and have paid a percentage of our total global income to them but have since received our 'goodbye' notice as from March 2008.

We have been told by one CPAM office that we shouldn't have been excluded and other people that we shouldn't have been included!

We've been told to get an 'E' form as I'm old enough :-(  but I can't do that.

We await news of our fate.

The Manx Minefield once more.

[cooperlola]

From some of the correspondence which we have received, it does seem to be that the major problem is in conveying the fact that you're not actually an EU national.  But there have been some successes so persistence is important.  The best thing you can do is to apply for a titre de sejour - even though this too can be fraught with difficulty.  But once you have one, your CPAM will have far more problems in refusing you.

[tribalecho]

[quote user="Sprogster"]

Hi cooperlola,

Although Jersey and Guernsey are not a full member of the EU almost all of its residents are still treated as EU Nationals. 

The reason being is that when the United Kingdom joined the EU the deal negotiated for Jersey and Guernsey resulted in any island resident born in the UK, or who has a UK born parent or grandparent, being treated as an EU national by reason that they are categorised as a full British citizen. (The C.I are part of the British Isles but not the UK.)

The vast majority of island residents qualify as EU nationals on the above basis. However, controversially to the very small number of island residents who don't qualify, their British?EU passports are annoted accordingly stating that they do not have right of work and abode in the EU.  

I have no idea if the Isle of Man is in the same situation.

[/quote]

 

It's always seemed crazy to me, as a Guern with French grandparents, that if I chose to move permanently to France, I am only allowed to live there because I have lived in the UK for more than 5 years, and therefore my passport says I have the right to live and work in the EU.  My father, with French parents (and French was his first language), would only be allowed to live in France because he and his French family were evacuated to the UK for the 5 years of WW2.

[Fleur]

Hi cooperlola and thanks for the advice.

We may be foolish, but we're keeping a watching brief at the moment.

But we feel so desperately sorry for those people who are wondering what on earth will happen to them in January.

You're doing a great job and thank you for your efforts.

 

 

 

[quote user="cooperlola"]

From some of the correspondence which we have received, it does seem to be that the major problem is in conveying the fact that you're not actually an EU national.  But there have been some successes so persistence is important.  The best thing you can do is to apply for a titre de sejour - even though this too can be fraught with difficulty.  But once you have one, your CPAM will have far more problems in refusing you.

[/quote]

[Fleur]

We had a conversation with the English Speaking helpline on Monday - 08 20 90 42 12

They seemed to think that as

a) I was of retirment age (hubby not quite yet)

b) we had been paying 8 percent of fullydeclared global income into CMU since we arrived 4 years ago and

c) that we held a Manx passport

We should not have been thrown out in the first place

Maybe this is true for others too?

We're hopeful that we may be allowed to stay in the system but France's erratic behaviour over this matter has made us lose confidence in anything that we are told by french authorities any more.

I must add though, that the lady who dealt with us on Monday was really sweet and very helpful.

[cooperlola]

It certainly should be true, Fleur for all non-EU nationals who qualify as CMU subscribers.  However, we've even heard of one Canadian who was summarily chucked out! - but I think they sent blanket letters to anybody with a remotely English sounding name, by the look of it.  Slowly they seem to be getting their act together but it is a long and tedious process.

[Fleur]

Thanks cooperlola

 

Just to go on yet again.

From French Health Issues http://www.frenchhealthissues.eu/messages_recd/messages_wc_9-1-08.htm

… I will nonetheless be writing to contest the decision as our two month period to contest it expires on the 16th January…

Can I just say that our letter, dated 26^th October 2007 seems not to indicate any time limit for contesting the issue. Have we missed something somewhere?

We have telephoned a few times now and are now worrying that we should have written although we have been advised to simply stay patient and wait.

As full UK/EU citizens, whilst also being British, we have different problems.

Does anyone know if this this letter - http://www.frenchhealthissues.eu/lobbying/lobbying_letters_9.htm - applicable to us?

 

 

[cooperlola]

As you will no doubt know from the front page of the site :

http://www.frenchhealthissues.eu/latest_news/new_regulations_confusion_09_01.htm

Yesterday we got a little more "clarification" about what is going on and why.  Those who are already subscribing to CMU will indeed be allowed to remain within it but CPAMs are not yet acting on these instructions as they are yet to receive the notification as to how the instructions which tell them how to implement the new rules are to be acted upon (with me so far?)  It is bureaucratic nonsense and very distressing, but we are assured by both the health ministry and CLEISS that this will be done, in spite of all the rejections being received throughout France.  The bigger problem is for E106 expirees who have chronic conditions because the appeals process for them is also being denied in many places!  For those like thee and me who have until the end of March, we fully expect the details to be in place before we are left with no cover at all.

CLEISS have asked us to tell everybody who has been refused, but who is entitled to stay in, to send copies of correspondance to them (see the link above) so they can get a view of what is going on.  Please do so.

We are also in contact with the UK Ambassador to Paris, who has written to us personally to assure us that he and his staff are still "on the case".  We have written to him once again to point out how stressful this all is, particularly for those who are now living here a)illigally and b) possibly at the risk of their lives.  We will keep you posted.

The time delay for an appeal only applies to the date you made the appeal, not how long it takes them to sort it out, AFIK, but I will check this out for you, Fleur.  Meanwhile, yes, you can use the letter on our site which you refer to.  Please keep us informed of the outcome - we need evidence and ammunition - and as much of it as possible.