Dog Agility

titch · November 3, 2004

Please can anyone help me and my poor dog. We are desperatly looking for an agility club to join in the Fougeres area - willing to travel, did alot in uk but don't seem to be able to find any info in france at all. Any info however trivial greatly appreciated.

Penny29 · November 3, 2004

Try out the following links:

http://chienplus.com/repacceuil.html

http://www.chez.com/cnea/favorite.htm

I1 · November 3, 2004

Try:

http://www.chez.com/cnea/ (the Commission Nationale education et Agility) The "Regions" button on the hone page is the one you want.

Also http://www.cnea.net/

May sound daft but check in your local Yellow Pages. They list dog clubs. I phoned round these (in my area) and found about half of them did agility. One or two clubs I telephoned did agility but without competition (just for fun and they said if you want to compete then that was not their club). The club I’m a member of does both agility and “formal obedience” training and I recon many are the same (i.e. do more than just agility).

Again, my experience is that in France agility is run in clubs that you pay an annual membership to join and there being no charge for each session.

I recon there are a few minor differences between UK and France - mainly in training methods (and jumps are a little lower. Also, fewer Border Collies. I didn't do that much in the UK and would be interested in finding out how you get on.

My experience is that people join their dog clubs to have fun and they are a pretty friendly crowd.

Also, round your “part of the world” is where most of the Border Collies are in France (though maybe they all work on farms and don’t do agility).

If you cannot find things, do ask and I'll try and turn-out more stuff.

Regards

Ian

I1 · November 3, 2004

Sorry, a couple of other things:

When I called and found some, they were all very happy for me to visit (with my dog) to see what they were like before actually joining. There was no difficulties in that respect atall. I was allowed to fully join in (with dog, etc.).

When calling round, I found a club and they asked where I lived - which was some distance away. They said "oh, there are some nearer you and gave me contact info for a couple of other clubs). The club I ended up joining in only listed on the web in one or two sites, etc.

Another good site that lists club by department is http://www.chien.com/index13.html

Maddie · November 4, 2004

Finding a club can be tricky. A lot do many different disciplines - field trials, agility, obedience etc. I have two dogs and in the UK was able to do agility with one and obedience with the other as the classes were at different times. With my club in France I had to do compulsory "education" with both dogs before I could join in any other classes even though we already had several KC certificates (Good Citizens) showing we had achieved a certain standard of basic obedience and had already competed in some obedience shows. All the classes were at the same time (Sunday morning) making it tricky and after doing an hour plus of "education" my poors dogs are often too knackered to do well at agility!

Sadly, I could not find anyone else to handle my second dog so I had to make a choice. Also, their training techniques for obedience leave quite a lot to be desired. They virtually insist on the use of choke chains if you have a large dog and do not hesitate in using the end of the leash as a "training tool" er herm .

As my club is a club with does something called "defense" most of the other dogs are Shepherds - Belgians or Germans, Boxers. My poor lab is the smallest (but strongest) dog in the class. My instructor frowns on me for using treats which my lab responds to beautifully. Having said that, the folks are lovely and very friendly and even make a bit of an effort to speak the odd words of English to me though I do my best to speak French to them.

As for agility, my "agility" dog in the UK had to take a back seat as she was already very well socialised. She also hated the club as the agility class was at the same time as the defense class where they were letting off fire arms and generally barking and being aggressive. She is a rescue dog and it did nothing to help her confidence. Shame really. The agility instructors know I have done some agility in the UK so when it's my turn they just leave me to it which is quite frustrating as I am by no means an expert at all and need all the help I can get! Still, I am lucky to have been given a set of agility equipment for a "certain" birthday and have it set up in the garden at home so at least we can have fun practicing. Still, it's not the same.

I still miss my old club in the UK.

I1 · November 4, 2004

My club (in France) also does this defence training, though with relatively few dogs and the formal obedience. Their Saturday afternoon meet is 1hr obedience (sit, stay, etc.) then 1 hr agility (which in all takes over 3 hrs). I gave up doing that as the dog I do agility with is quite timid and tends to avoid other dogs and the Saturday sessions have more newcomers whose dogs were a bit “in her face” and were not helping her. The “hard core” agility dogs are better at saying hello briefly and ignoring her (she prefers being ignored by other dogs).

However they also have separate training times (Wed and Sun) where there is none of the "sit, stay, etc." - all the time spend doing agility. Some people have two dogs and run them both. When you join the club, if you go with more than 1 dog it’s a higher membership fee. Its fairly small and informal. Some people leave their dogs clipped to a fence and some dogs spend some of the time just wandering around playing, saying hello, etc.

I did not have to take any obedience tests before doing anything. I might be that they thought she had such potential they skipped that stage.

When I joined the club I was quite surprised as it was the first time (in France) that there had been any real recognition by anybody about the need for dog-dog socialisation. My impression is that general dog training techniques do seem slightly different in France. I have on one occasion just avoided an obstacle as I was not happy with the training technique they wanted to use. I cannot say their technique was wrong (I’m a beginner), just that I did not want it for my dog. I constructed the obstacle in the garden, trained her on that and they there was no problem (I avoided the “issue”).

By the way, my dod is a pup (9 months old), so we dont even do all the obsticles at the moment.

Maddie · November 4, 2004

Thankfully, I did not have to pay extra for running 2 dags but I did have to supply reams of paperwork in order to join - LOF /KC paperwork for the lab and entry into KC working trials/agility register (can't remember the exact name) for the mongie, tattoo/microchip certificates, vaccination cards, rabies certificates and proof they had third party insurance liability (usually coverd by household cover), plus a cheque for 84 euros! You may be interested that for my club, the cost of membership is tax deductable!

Their main training day for all disciplines is SUnday morning but they have an agility trainign session on Wednesday afternoon for those that want to compete. So far, when I've turned up there's been no-one there!

I did do some agility competitions in the UK (5) with my lovely mingmog (crossbreed) but the most succesful one was where we managed 4 obstacles in the right order! Typical when she always managed perfect clear rounds at training. She used to just run round and round in circles making the crowds and other competitors hysterical with laughter. The judges always used to say "at least she's having fun!" Small consolation for my embarassment! My lab (who is 2) has only been doing agility since March (when we came to France) and absolutely loves it.

If anyone is near St Gaudens (31) and is interested in having a bit of fun doing agility or working on improving agility skills (I have the kit and am fine with individual obstacles but its more practical skills required to negotiate courses and directional commands I need help with) I'd love to hear from them.

Nicola

I1 · November 4, 2004

Whilst it’s a bit off the original question.

My reason for starting the pup so early was that she was very timid and scared of things and I figured it would help socialise her (particularly with other dogs) However, her 1^st go at agility and she was doing the tunnel (reliably) by her fourth attempt and the Chaussette tunnel within 6 attempts. The Passerelle was pretty well straight over and she gave all the impressions of being “a natural”. The Bascule was the obstacle we/I had a small issue with. We thus moved to the “agility-only” class.

She is still scared of other dogs – can sometimes tolerate a brief sniff but gets decidedly unhappy at more than that. She can quite happily sit next to another dog if the other dog pays her no attention. She can quite happily run around the area with all the other dogs provided none pay her any attention. If she gets unhappy she will start to lift her lip. If the other dog does not move away she will start snapping in the air – as yet we have not had anything worse than that and I’m hoping as she gets more used to other dogs she will get better. I’m very open to suggestions about anything else I can do to improve her. (when I have a visitor in the house I have to shut her away at the moment ‘cos she just barks and barks at them). However, both her parents were timid as well.

I had to complete a 1 side of A4 form (address dog name LOF (which mine isn’t) and that was about it). I was advised that (in France) it is a good idea to carry her rabies certificate around but never asked to show it. They are a proper club, do competition, affiliated to the national authority (last weekend we had the regional “agility chief” visit with open training for loads of clubs in the region/department.

Ian

November 4, 2004

Yellow pages and vets are the best places to ask for dog clubs; I struggled to track mine down, there was a small ad in Decathlon which had gone when I went back to look for it but the club did then appear in the Yellow Pages which it wasn't previously listed in... they are in big towns and I suspect the mairie or equivalent would be a good starting point but if like me you're in a very rural area this is not helpful I realise.

My club provides agility, tracking and obedience; it will be introducing rci (a combination of three disciplines including le mordant) if there is enough demand.

I have been two a couple of beginners' obedience classes, there is a lot of emphasis on socialisation.

It seems to be accepted that even trained dogs growl and snap at you outside the classes which my dog and I are not keen on.

Choke chains are virtually obligatory but as far as I can see in the hands of the experienced handlers the dogs learn quickly and love them for it... and if your dog is obedient for other reasons it's irrelevant to him anyway.

Treats are used - I have had the opposite experience to the above poster; when I expressed my concern at my dog's comportment it was suggested I arm myself with treats - experience at home suggests this will be counterproductive - I don't think French experts in any field like to be argued with, I wish I hadn't mentioned the problem...

Maddie · November 4, 2004

[quote]Yellow pages and vets are the best places to ask for dog clubs; I struggled to track mine down, there was a small ad in Decathlon which had gone when I went back to look for it but the club did then a...[/quote]

I did find it very strange the choke chain thing. My lab did obedience to competition level in the UK but it was indoors and she was very comfortable with it. Now we are outdoors she behaved like a mad thing and I had to resort to a choke chain which she does respond well to.

Mind you, there are some things that we leant in the UK that I'm sure would benefit handlers in France to make thier lives easier. For example leading off (ie starting to walk to heel) always using the left leg first and when you want your dog to wait move off with right leg. The dogs very soon learn your body language.

I do get very frustrated to see that handlers are taught to tread on the lead it with their foot iand then to tug on the lead in order to teach their dogs to lie down when a simple movement with a small treat would be just as effective and not so harsh. My French instructor uses treats too (as well as the "harsher regime" and told me that the French invented training with treats (!!!) - the "natural" way he said, then promptly told me off for using them at all. My dog responds to hand signals and when I put my right hand (the treat hand) near my right hip she thinks I may have a treat and responds accordingly. He even used me as an example of how it works in class (or was he making fun of me?!!!)

Each to his own taste . At least the dogs in my class are all well looked after, healthy and obedient (mostly) and their owners are lovely. That's what it's all about isn't it?

I1 · November 4, 2004

I (personally) don't like choke chain collars and don't use them. Similarly, I don't tug/jerk, etc. the lead. Dog must listen/watch and be guided (one day they actually might - and I'll probably be so shocked I'll ...). I don't do obedience, just agility when she can (and does) run around like a mad thing.

I’ve always been taught (and tried to do) that you should reward a dog a.s.a.p. after they have done something correct. I’ve noticed (in France) that there are often long delays between action by dog and reaction by handler (both positive and negative). One day at the club there was a minor scuffle between a couple of dogs (to my mind trivial sort of thing tghat always happens), yet the “initiating” dog was “told of” several minutes after the incident had finished. Positive stuff is the same – sometimes a longish delay before the reward.

I’m not an expert so please do not interpret my comments as criticising anybody/anything. I have certain ways I train my dogs and am sure others have different ways that are equally successful. Each to their own techniques.

Maddie · November 5, 2004

[quote]I (personally) don't like choke chain collars and don't use them. Similarly, I don't tug/jerk, etc. the lead. Dog must listen/watch and be guided (one day they actually might - and I'll probably be ...[/quote]

Quite - use whatever works - providing it's not cruel or causes injury. I have always rewarded good behaviour and completely ignored bad behaviour (sometimes very difficult to do!!!)

The choke chain has worked for me (Iactually, I use a "chain" half choke which can only tighten to a certain point) altho I don't completely approve of it - she responds to the sound rather than any actual pressure on the neck. Proof being the reaction when the lead comes out when she can't see it - "Goody, we're going out!"

Nic

November 6, 2004

Mmm, I understand obedience classes vary widely in the UK too, it's difficult for those of us with little experience to know what's right for our dogs... it's very obvious looking round our class that all the dogs' behaviour is the direct result of their owners'... but it's not so obvious with one's own.

My dog is castrated and while I usually have plenty to say on the subject I struggled to defend my choice faced with shock and horror at the club, "why on earth did you have that done"? I came out with a load of rubbish about how I couldn't have controlled him otherwise... whereas when a locum vet asked me I came out with my usual sound reasoning.

I1 · November 6, 2004

Were the comments from others at your club in UK or France.

I have the impression that castration and spaying are not quite "the norm" as much as they are in the UK. I've noticed on an SPA information sheet (information for people adopting a dog) that they recommend that you have the pet castrated/spayed. I thought in the UK the Rescue Centre had the pet castrated/spayed before you could take him/her home.

My local vet surgery (France) has some small posters encouraging neutering of cats. I did not have to explain why I wanted her spayed, they didn’t question it.

My male was castrated in the UK quite young. My (French) pup was spayed recently and I've not yet received any comments (though we have only recently started going again after the operation). It will be interesting so see.

When I originally took my older male to puppy classes in the UK he was terrible (still is ?). He spent the entire 45 minutes scrabbling on the floor trying to meet and play with the other dogs (would not do any of the sit, stay, walk, stuff). The person running the class kept saying not to worry as he would “grow-out of it”. One class she took him from he to a corner and tried to get him to sit. 5 mins. Later, having been unsuccessful she returned him to me with the comment “he’s a difficult dog to handle”. I now believe that had I been able to address his behaviour at an earlier age he might be better these days.

November 6, 2004

Absolutely, the comments were in France. My regular vet thinks as I do and even says that Anglo-saxon countries are way ahead of France in this matter; popular opinion in my area is that castration and sterilisation of cats and dogs is cruel. The pill has recently become very popular for cats around here and is a big step forwards.

It is never too late to learn... I found Colin Tennant's book "Faire perdre ses mauvaises habitudes à son chien" very helpful once my dog became an adult; it's translated from the English but I don't know what the original title was.

I also liked Carol Price's "Understanding the Border Collie" and books by John Holmes but the practical advice in them is not so clear.

titch · November 6, 2004

Thanks everyone for all your replies, i seem to have started something here! Just one other thing, my dog is not a pedigree, she is a collie cross. Like the UK, can i compete with her in France or not if she is a crossbreed or can only pedigrees compete in France? If I can compete with her here, do i have to get her registered like in the UK with the Kennel Club (french equivilent) and if so how do i go about doing that?

I1 · November 6, 2004

Unfortunately my French is somewhat “limited” (though I am learning, going to classes and not just ignoring it) – which makes my understanding of some things liable to mis-interpretation.

The dog I do agility with is non-LOF (though is a Border Collie) and I have assumed this is the same as being non-pedigree (?). Nobody has told me there is a problem competing, though I also would be very interested if anybody knows the real situation (my dog is too young to complete for some time to come).

Also, I don’t know if they would require your dog be registered with the SCC (which I’m told it probably should be anyway). What I have been told (though must admit have not yet got round to it with my UK dog) is that if your dog is in France for more that 3 months he/she must be registered. I asked my vet when I first moved about rules, etc. and they did not say this. However, others have said that in France, vets to not regard themselves as “enforcing rules” so may not push you to do this. However, the French Authorities do not have access to the UK microchip database so, should your dog get lost, etc. then they would not be able to find you through a UK registered microchip.

As a slight aside, when I had some initial problems getting the pup and older dog to behave properly together, I telephoned one of the main UK Border Collie Rescue Societies for advice and mentions Carol Price’s book. I have a copy but they were very “down” on it (saying you should ignore much of it) – which surprised me as many other places recommend it.

November 6, 2004

I'll ask at my club if you can compete with your dogs; mine too is a non-pedigree (non-LOF) border collie. I think you can compete at least up to a certain level; I think it's more a case of passing exams (brevets) than actually competing as such up to a fairly high level.
My club is registered with the SCC which is the Kennel Club equivalent, so I am registered through them. To register with the SCC I had to provide the certificate of his chip (as well as vaccinations and house insurance).
You could search the archives, there was a thread about re-registering British chips, you would have to do this to get the certificate but it might be simpler to have him chipped again, or tatooed.The British chip will tell the French Authorities that he has a British owner, nothing else, unless it is reregistered.

I1 · November 6, 2004

I'm pretty sure I can just register him with the UK chip (I hope so as the Pet Passports stuff has to start from scratch if you re-chip - and then there is the ambiguity about which chip reads when going through checks). I’m sure I have seen somewhere that it’s a paperwork exercise.

Fortunately the UK dog does not do agility - too obsessed with other dogs to be able to focus for long enough (he was quite fast at Flyball but they don’t seem to do that in France). The French pup is the one who does agility. To be honest I have no personal desires to become an agility champion. It is good fun (social for me), helps socialise the pup, she seems to really enjoy it (although she is a beginner). Who knows how she will “train up” (she is only 9 months old at the moment). The club certainly recon she will be ready for competition by the 18 month entry age limit. If that is the case and she enjoys it, then we might do a few competitions, but only if it’s fun.

Likewise, my club is SCC registered, but that doesn’t affect the UK older dog (as he isn’t part of it atall). I have to spend some time at the vets when the Pet Passport paperwork arrives (I’m waiting of the paperwork for the French pup so I can return to the UK for Christmas), so I’ll sort out the UK dog registration at the same time.

November 7, 2004

non-pedigree dogs can compete in agility but not tracking, so it's just as well that I had no ambition to compete either!

Patf · November 7, 2004

Just a comment on Ian's remark that his border collie puppy is nervous of other dogs - we have two border collies, one male and one female, and both are rather jumpy and nervous of other dogs. Though they get on with eachother really well. I mentioned it to our vet and he said it was a characteristic of the breed. We haven't taken them to any classes, but do train them in things like being calm with the ducks and chickens and controlling other animals. The dog is excellent with sheep while the bitch can control cows! Both of which jobs were necessary recently. Pat.

I1 · November 7, 2004

I asked at my club today and understood a little of the answer. The bit I understood is that as a non-LOF you cannot become the "National Agility Champion" (nor a few other things), but you can compete. However, they started going on about the “brevets” and I lost understanding there.

What is "tracking" - is that things like selecting the correct item based on scent (seek-and-find).

Also when you say "... so it's just as well that I had no ambition to compete either!", do you mean that you can compete in agility or not.

Certainly I had the impression from what they said that you can. I have very limited French and people at my club speak even less English (but we manage as things normally are not too critical). The reason it came up is that the applications for an Agility Licence have to be in by the 15th Nov and they had filled in a form for me assuming my dog was LOF. Apparently it’s a different form for non-LOF – hence the subject came-up.

November 7, 2004

Brevets are certificates, you have to gain a few before moving on to competitions in which you actually compete directly against other dogs. The "concours de brevets" are events as which you gain certificates (or don't) rather than competing directly against other dogs - there are fixed numbers of points for various abilities.

Pistage Français is following a track to an object or objects which are given to the handler; sticking closely to the track is important. English tracking is different but I know nothing of it so I'm not sure how different it is.

I could compete in agility but haven't tried agility as yet and have no desire to at present; my dog adores tracking and I would probably feel obliged to compete if we could.

I1 · November 7, 2004

My two are both uneasy about other dogs. The older (UK) male was always totally obsessed with other dogs (had to go and greet them and would leap around making all sorts of noise if a lead stopped him). He was friendly, but as about 1.5 yrs old he was attacked by another dog (mine lying on ground waiting, other dog ran over to him, 6 ft away other dogs mouth open, I said “Oh God” and other dog laid straight into him – no physical injury, just well shaken). Now he still needs to greet other dogs but is jumpy. He has never actually bitten another dog but if the 1st second or two of greeting does not go well then he will put on quite a show.

Pup is fine if the other dogs ignore her. If they pester her, she will lift a lip (showing teeth). If they ignore that she will star snapping in the air. She decides pretty quickly about friends and enemies. Once a dog is an “enemy”, it will get the display is he/she approaches. No attack, no biting, just displays.

As you say, I also have always been told that Border Collies nature is that they have to make decisions and quickly. With my male I have always found he gets on very well with other Border Collies (they just all play the same way and thus seem to get on). To help him get more comfortable with other dogs, I spent almost a year taking him to weekly classes for dogs who were not good with other dogs. The people running the class basically believed that many dog-dog issues were because the dogs had not learnt to communicate and the way to resolve it is to let them learn to communicate – and they took all these dogs that didn’t get on with other dogs for a long walk in the forest (all off lead). The people running it really knew what they were doing and how to help the dogs – it was not a “free for all” (and they used muzzles where appropriate). (It may sound daft but apparently the worst injury they had had in 10 years doing it every week was a small puncture wound that did not require a vet). Anyway, there was one Border Collie there that was really terrible and would attack anything (some people would not go when the particular dog came) – this bad dog and mine got on fine (both Border Collies).

I have actually been really surprised how obsessed by agility the youngster (non-LOF female) has become and how quickly this has happened (I’ve only been doing it for a couple of months).

Sorry – I’ve gone on (but I tend to when the subject of Border Collies is mentioned).

I1 · November 7, 2004

One other thought. My male is pedigree (his brother once came 3rd in breed at Crufts). However, whilst he is Kennel Club registered, this has been “invalidated” as he is castrated. Whilst I have not bothered to declare this to the Kennel club (naughty me!), I always thought that this effectively meant that he is no longer a Pedigree.

If my above impression is correct (which it may not be, it is just what I thought), does the same apply to LOF/non-LOF and could that add to the reservation French people have about neutering their dogs ?

Dog Agility

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment