Animal Behaviourist

[Christine Animal]

Sometimes, but luckily not very often, people ask if I know of an English speaking animal behaviourist.  In case of need, are there any out there?

Thanks.

 

[Deimos]

I have experience on only one in France. I visited when I got my pup, not because I wanted an animal behaviourist but because it was before I'd found any dog clubs and was desperate to socialise the pup with other well behaved dogs. He was more than a trainer and definitely considered himself a "behaviourist". Ended up that I got a 2hr lecture on how to be dominant. How I must always eat before the dog, how the dog must not only never be allowed on the bed but never even near my bed, etc. Sort of attitudes long ago discarded in the UK and singularly useless.

I know I have experience of only one in this regard but I am pretty sceptical of a lot of French dog training methods. There does seem quite a range of methods but dominance and choke collars seem to play a very universal role. Thus, when it comes to real problems I would be very careful (as the wrong actions risk making things worse).

Ian

[Chancer]

I have a friend who subscribes to the above theory, he is definitely "the leader of the pack" and the dog is the most happiest and well behaved that I know.

Now when it comes to their children.............................!

Given (generally) how well adjusted and behaved French children are I for one long for a return (in the UK) to the attitudes long ago discarded but still in everyday use in France, and not just for dogs!

[kate V.N.]

Hopefully I can be of some help. I have lived in France for 5 years and run gites. However since being here I have been helping owners with their pets in a number of ways including running a dog training course that a number of people had asked for. I am a qualified veterinary nurse with qualifications in animal behaviour and was the animal behaviourist for my practice for a number of years.  I ran puppy parties in my practice for over 10 years and over 800 puppies came to them. I was also a dog trainer and ran a number of courses including the good citizens dog scheme. Sorry if this sounds like I’m blowing my own trumpet, but I think it is important for you to know  my experience in this field.

Also although I agree some of the behaviour methods over here are out dated I'm afraid I do have to disagree with one of your previous correspondents who said that the method of "eating before your dogs and not letting them sleep on the furniture" is outdated. These are infact very important rules for difficult dogs. (I agree not everyone has to follow them, I share a bed with 3!  If you would like any further information please get in contact and I will happily fill you in on any other details you may want. I have to say although I moved over her to have more time to spend with my own animals I have always found it rewarding trying to help people overcome any problems they have with theirs.

 

[Deimos]

[quote user="kate V.N."]

... disagree with one of your previous correspondents who said that the method of "eating before your dogs and not letting them sleep on the furniture" is outdated. These are infact very important rules for difficult dogs....

[/quote]

To which I must defend my comment. If you read my post you will see that the advice was given in the context of a normal pup - not a difficult dog. Similarly, the advice also included not only that the pup should not be allowed on the bed but should not be allowed near it.

However, I do also have a "difficult dog" and one that was taken to a "full blown" Pet Behaviourist (an member of the APBC, where you need a veterinary report before you can get an appointment). In his report he also explicitly rubbished the "dogs not allowed on bed" thing (as I had raised it during the consultation). Maybe you know better than him; in which case I think your fees will be beyond many people here.

If you are going to be critical of what others write you a) should read what they write and b) get things correct yourself. I can only re-quote what others have told me (both the Behaviourist who cost a fortune, has qualifications and experience everywhere, etc.) plus other APDT members. And their advice has helped.

Sorry is that sounds a bit aggressive but it annoys me when you start the "he was wrong" attitude without reading, etc.

Ian

[Christine Animal]

Well I can only speak from personal experience and not from training.  Kate does say she has three on the bed with her.  There is no problem with that if all goes well with the dogs.  But a difficult and dominant dog has to be kept in his place.  Many years ago my parents in law had a medium sized cross, something like a flat coat.  She was a lovely dog, but was completely spoilt and had no proper discipline.  If she was on a bed or settee and someone else wanted to sit down, she used to show her teeth.

This is when they should be told to get down and stay down.  I have never been able to agree with the thing of eating before your dog.  I was always taught to take care of your animals first.  I know it's to show you are pack leader, but it seems preferable to me to have a satisfied dog who has already eaten and goes and lies down, away from the table.  But that's just my opinion.

 

[Deimos]

The thing that is considered important these days is to have rules and to be consistent in enforcing those rules. It is actually not to important what the rules are within reasonable bounds. For example, it would be of no sensible benefit to have a rule that your dog must rush around like a mad thing when the postman arrives.

Fine, if you don't want dog hairs all over your furniture then keep your dogs off the chairs. If you do not want your dog on the bed then keep him/her off the bed. What the rules are is not the important thing. It is that there are some rules and they remain the same. Rule might be just that the dog has to wait to be allowed on the furniture (e.g. must sit until given on "OK" command).

One thing I found having had a very difficult dog is that you end-up seeking advice from a lot of different places and a lot of experts. Mostly they have loads of qualifications and surprisingly they are moderately consistent. My own dog did get a bit easier than he was but is still quite difficult. What has changed is his environment which is now such that his "difficulties" do not come out (often). Not really relevant to the thread but I actually ended-up taking him to "communal classes" which was the one that really helped (over a longish period of time). The people running that really knew their stuff when it came to difficult dogs (and some were really difficult - one session the guy did not make it and his partner ran it as a dog had bitten through his thumb to the bone and apparently it was his fault for not ensuring the muzzle was fitted properly). I learnt a massive amount from the various sessions and people I went to and managed to see what effects the treatments had on different dogs with different problems. Boy did some dogs have some problems as well. One session a Border Collie turned-up who seemed the nicest dog in the world and I assumed he was a "stooge dog". He was great until a group of walkers wandered past and when the one with the walking stick passed he went berserk (fortunately the owner saw the walker before the dog did). It was also interesting to see how badly some people react when faced with a "challenging dog".

Ian

[kate V.N.]

In the past I have not involved myself on this forum for fear of the very thing that has just happened. I don’t know why anyone bothers to offer advice if it is going to be received so badly. I have noticed this happen to others on a number of occasions on a number of different forums, so I should have known better I suppose!  Everyone thinks they know better and are quite AGGRESSIVE with their views. I responded to the original enquiry because help was asked for. Well I will give a bit more of my  "UNQUALIFIED, EXPENSIVE ADVICE” I don’t even remember mentioning a fee for my work. Believe it or not some people try and help others and importantly their animals out of kindness. I have seen and had to re home to many pets that owners have just given up on or can no longer handle!!!!! On top of which I have had to hold perfectly healthy animals for Euthanasia, while their owners slink off out of the room, because they can't handle or have ruined their dogs and will not give permission for rehoming to dogs that could have bee rehabilitate. So don't attack my character without having the full information.

 Their are a number of people who call themselves behaviourist of one form or another and their are number of qualifications that you can receive that puts your name on a number of different registers. However I am the first to say that it is not the qualifications that count, but the experience you have with handling the animals. I have heard of the organisations you mentioned, funnily enough and some of my qualifications come from their veterinary courses and yes they are a very good organisations. In England I too saw animals on veterinary referrals. But was always aware of my capabilities and if I wasn’t happy taking on a particular case I would refer them to others with more experience, but as you have pointed they can be expensive . Perhaps you have heard of Sarah Heath, Caroline Bower, Peter Neville and Roger Mugford, just a few who’s courses I have been on and who came down and gave lectures at the practice I worked in. The idea in my practice and I thought asked for on this forum was to first try someone who maybe in the area who maybe able to help and if not then go further a field if necessary.

The reason I stupidly felt I should disagree, not attack or shoot down in flames, but disagree with the previous correspondent was because no method of training should be discounted unless it is an unkind way of teaching or training an animal. Because some methods work better on some dogs and their owners than others. I do however agree whole-heartedly that choke chains should be a thing of the past.

I am not going waste my time any further in going into details as to the benefits particularly with the older and younger generation to the not allowing the dogs on the furniture, beds etc. Or the not feeding your dogs before you eat (I did not say starve the poor things and leave them to wait hours before their next meal). Except to say they are part of a kind and gentle method of re training a dog with problems and a way of avoiding problems with certain breeds at a later date. Suirely we all know that preventing a problem from occuring in the first place is far better that trying to cure it at a later date. Hence the need for puppy parties. By the way also given freely to clients at our practice. Anyway anyone who would like more information on this let me know I will happily e-mail them FREE OF CHARGE.

Can I finally say that at the end of the day I presumed the idea of this topic was to help animals and that being so I would say always listen to any advice given, whether it's from a friend a neighbour, a dog breeder, a dog trainer, a vet or dare I say it an animal behaviourist as long as it’s a kind method of training  just listen or read and try and find the right one that suits you and your pet. 

And be sure I have learnt my lesson on replying to a forum.

 

[Deimos]

[quote user="kate V.N."]

In the past I have not involved myself on this forum for fear of the very thing that has just happened. I don’t know why anyone bothers to offer advice if it is going to be received so badly. I have noticed this happen to others on a number of occasions on a number of different forums, so I should have known better I suppose!  Everyone thinks they know better and are quite AGGRESSIVE with their views

[/quote]

Well maybe you should have read what I had written before disagreeing with it. You twisted what I said, took it out of context and then disagreed with it. So what did you expect me to do !!!

I have seen so much bad advice given (to me) by "experts" who really did not have the depth of experience needed to resolve issues that required a Behaviourist. It is only when one finds somebody who has adequate experience of difficult dogs and with appropriate resources (e.g. stooge dogs, facilities to set-up scenarios, etc.) that people can get meaningful help for "problem dogs".

I think if you are offering your services as a qualified Behaviourist you might want to actually say what your qualifications are (you seem a bit vague on this point). For example, I assume you are a member of the APDT (if you have been running puppy classes in the UK).

[quote user="kate V.N."]

So don't attack my character without having the full information.

[/quote]

My response did not attack you character in any way. It only defended my own comments that you had twisted then disagreed with. Sorry but that's how it is - try re-reading what I had written.

Ian

[kate V.N.]

 

My qualifications are as follows

I am a fully qualified Veterinary Nurse, and part of the two-year course to become qualified entails animal behaviour. 1993

I passed an Animal Behaviour and Training course held by the B.V.A in October 1997

I passed a Pet Health Councillor  (Including animal behaviour) - March 1994

Passed Companion Animal Behaviour Module 1 2000 B.V.N.A

Passed Companion Animal Behaviour Course Module 2  2000 B.V.N.A.

Passed Companion Animal Behaviour Module 3 2000 B.V.N.A.

Passed Companion Animal Behaviour Course 4 2000 B.V.N.A

Passed Certificate In Companion Animal Behaviour 2000 B.V.N.A

I am not going to continue, I think these justify me being able to give advice, perhaps you can now give your qualifications, since I see you have been giving advice on dog behaviour on this forum, without having a full history of the problem in front of you, which any behaviourist from any organisation would ask for before giving a solution to a problem.

I am not a member of APDT, the puppy parties I held were at the veterinary practice I worked at. Which if you knew anything about puppy parties, you would know that it was in Veterinary practices that most of them started, with good reason, which again you would know about if you had ever attended one. As for dog training classes I ran them once again at the vets and also at a local club. Although I certainly think APDT is a good organisation and has a number of very good and experienced dog trainers registered with it, I'm also afraid I do have to say that I have met an APDT trainer that had passed the course and could call themselves a dog trainer having had no previous experience of handling dogs and got the qualification after a very short course. So I do say again QUALIFICATIONS ARE NOT EVERYTHING. In my humble opinion experience is far more important.

You can now spend your time ranting and raving at everything I have said, but I should inform you that I will not be bothering to reply to any more of your sarcastic and unwarranted comments. As it is I can’t believe that I have wasted my time answering your belligerent question about my qualifications.

 

 

 

[Deimos]

All I would ask is that you do not twist what I said in order that you can disagree with it.

I have attended puppy classes - though again you seem to want to be negative about me and without any evidence suggest that I have not. As in all areas of life some people are good at their job and others not. The APDT has a code of practice, inspection system, etc. which are the main reasons it is of benefit. If trainers are not "up-to-scratch" then they should be reported to the APDT who can investigate and take action accordingly.

Where I used to live in the UK vet practices had given up giving puppy classes as they were all run by the APDT people - which was generally considered a more appropriate thing.

I am still in a bit of disbelief about your attitude. You twist my words and take them out of context so you can disagree with them then complain about me when I defend what I originally said. Had you read what I wrote to begin with and not twisted it then I would have had no reason to comment. You recognise the benefit of the UK regulatory organisations for Pet Training and Behaviour Counsellors yet have not troubled to join either before offering your services as a Behaviourist. And you get upset when this is pointed out.

I also find it disappointing that you cannot see the difference between my offering some suggestions on dog training and your offering you services as a Pet Behaviourist (dealing with problem dogs). But maybe that says it all.

Fine - as you don't like me making suggestions to people without qualifications will stop giving any advice at all in the Pets section. It was an area where I had knowledge and experience but I'm happy spending my time doing other things. Happy now ?

Ian

[Chrissie]

You know, Kate V.N. - as the owner of what was once an extremely disturbed and difficult dog, I nearly posted a message yesterday to say how great it was to have someone qualified like you offering free advice - I wish I had sat down and done it then rather than waiting until today.

I'm sorry this seems to have degenerated into one of those hideous "you said" and "I said" threads, and would just ask you to believe that you are not alone in having had your head shot at, the moment you raised it above the parapet!  Please don't opt out of the forum as I'm sure you have a lot to offer on all fronts.

Chrissie (81)

 

[Chancer]

Hear Hear!

[Bugsy]

Kate, I was going to say, don't bite but perhaps don't respond would be better. It is a fact of life on most forums that there are always going to be individuals who try a bit of one-upmanship. Experts in everything, masters of nothing etc etc.

(please note this is a general comment, nothing more)