Losing touch with my son if we move to France

[Russethouse]

 I suspect many British people move to France because they are attracted by a life in the countryside which they couldn't aford in the UK, as well as many other factors. Quite a few go back too, ask the removal companies.

As for the Sun's stabbing statistics, I think you'll find that France has more murders than the UK : http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

 

 

[ianmill]

Perhaps the murder and suicide statistics quoted will encourage more people to return to the UK, but maybe some should consider staying just a little longer, if this story from Timesonline is anything to go by:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6792825.ece

(Post edited by moderator, the article quoted was under copyright)


I was asking if anyone had stabbings - not murder - data. The chances of being murdered in the UK or France are very very low - but what about lower-level crime? It is this that encouraged me to come and live here - the ability to walk around town at night without feeling threatened.

Ian

[Panda]

Ian, give it it up. You sound like the scene from the monthy python film;

Apart from the sewers, the roads - and so it goes on what have the romans ever done for us!

So apart from the suicide rate, the murder rate....

.

If you live in the middle of nowhere in the UK crime is low, the same goes for France, if you live in a large town or city again both will be quite high. I lived near a town in France with exactly the same number of peiople (10k ish) as the one I now live near in the UK, I read the local papers in the UK and did in FRance, both report thefts and the occasional assault, both I could walk through the town centre at 12am and not feel threatened in any way.

You have to compare like with like.

Anyone who goes to France to live a rural life could have found the same in the UK but it would have cost a lot more, that is the main reason people move in my experience.

Panda

[Sprogster]

Ian, how long exactly have you been living permanently in France and do you still work?

Most Brits that move to France are retirees and the main attraction is or was the perception of cheaper living costs and that that Brits could sell up their over valued houses in the UK, buy a cheaper property in France and put the capital gain towards their pension. Clearly with the collapse of the UK housing market and £, together with the change in French health care rules whereby inactif early retiree Brits are no longer covered by the French health care system once their E106 has run out, means that interest in France has declined substantively, as is apparent from the very few new posts from people planning to move to France, as compared to a couple of years ago.

The problem for economically active Brits is that job prospects in France are all but non existent if they are not totally fluent in French and France has consistantly a much higher rate of unemployment than the UK. Therefore, most Brits with transportable skills tend to go to countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the USA.

[Grimaud dreamer]

Hello Sprogster

Do you live in France?  Are  you British? You do seem to have quite a negative view of most things,especially Brits wanting to relocate which I am presuming you did already?? What have you got against retirees?

I started this discussion quite upbeat about our possible move to France, however from the postings received in response to my initial one, I feel quite depressed...in the main you have all almost managed to put me off....

To view my thoughts on the issues raised along the way....

I think we would all agree that wherever you choose to live, be it in Moss Side, Manchester, or some rural backwater in France, drugs will always be a problem and a source of intrigue to young people.    I have a view that living in a rural backwater may present a greater danger of becoming involved in drugs because your peer group will be quite small, and is likely to include those who your children may not associate with if able to choose thier friends from a larger group.  As parents we need to find ways to educate our children and hopefully steer them clear of the dangers drug abuse undoubtedly present.  No easy task, but is is one to be faced wherever you live.

As for crime - murders, stabbings etc.  Possibly blown up by the media however as anyone venturing out into any town or city in the UK after dark would testify, it is quite a depressing and intimidating experience.  A large proportion of British people - and I don't just mean the youth - seem to universally concur that having a good time equates with drinking far more than you can actually handle, which we all know, means lack of self control, violence etc.I don't believe this happens to the same extent in France - recently holidaying in Lorgues, Provence, the town hosted a quite hip DJ and foam party on the square.  If this had been in any location in Britain there would have been drunken youths and older people 'here we go-ing' and causing a nuisance of themselves.  In Lorgues, although there was a bar, everyone was just enjoying the fun of the foam - no threatening behaviour or drunkenness, no yobs marauding around shouting at the tops of their voices.  Just a pleasant evening for everyone to enjoy. To anyone living in this country the drunken yob side of things seems totally out control.  Gang culture which is rife particularly on council estates,  presents a terrifying and worrying view of life in Britian.   What a waste of young lives. Of course we are not all like this, nor do we all experience the fall out, but as Britian is such a small country it feels as though this culture is encroaching fast on the normal law abiding working people.  I don't want my son having to live with this.  The culture in Britain at the moment almost universally it seems, is the 'me, me, me', 'want, want, want' generation and we have bred a generation of people for whom work is something never to be sampled - the benefits culture is so embedded and so out of control that normal working people do now feel there must be a better life elsewhere.

I love France having fell in love with the lifestyle over 20 years ago when as a 22 year old I went to work there.  I stayed for 7 years on and off and only came back because the company I was working for ceased trading, and it is for the lifestyle opportunities offered that I have yearned to return.  The weather plays a large role - obviously.  Cheap property doesn't come into the equation unfortunately in the area to which we wish to relocate.  The outdoor lifestyle, a comparable education system, a better health system, and a preferable culture, particularly amongst young people, were the main reasons we want to make the move.  I may be wrong with some of these ideals, but Britain at the moment is shocking - and the unpredicatable weather certainly doesn't help.

Sprogster, I think there has probably been a slow down in new younger families wanting to move to France in the last couple of years due precisely to the downturn in the housing market, - a lot of people - particularly younger families would probably lose money if they sold up now, so like me, are waiting for the market to recover a little, and for the exchange rate to improve.  Almost everyone you speak to here dreams of moving away.

[Sprogster]

Grimaud Dreamer, I have no idea why you think I have anything against retirees. I was merely pointing out that they make up the majority of Brits moving to France, as France is a great country to retire or go on holiday to, but not a good place to make even a basic living. Especially, if you are not fluent in French.

Most younger economically active Brits emigrate to countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the USA, like increasing numbers of French citizens. If you are looking for a future for your son, I would also consider further afield, as with  youth unemployment in France of 25% I am not sure it would be the best place to go.

[Grimaud dreamer]

Hi Sprogster

I am a European at heart and further afield places like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA don't appeal to me at all....I prefer to take my chances in Europe and that will possibly be France.  I guess it will depend on what career choices my son will make as to whether he will get work or not and it is quite a long way in the future.  I take your point about youth unempoyment - not sure what comparable figures would be for UK, not great I suspect.

 

 

[Sprogster]

Youth unemployment is much worse in France as the inflexibility of the job market deters employers taking on inexperienced young people, as it is too dificult to fire them if it does not work out . 

[Russethouse]

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/3/498516/ShowPost.aspx#498516

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/869562/ShowPost.aspx

Two old but interesting threads that touch on some of the topics raised here.

[Rose]

Hi GM... sorry if this looks more like an essay than a post!  [:D]

Like you we fell in love with France decades ago and dreamed of moving over on early retirement.  I love the UK.  We lived in beautiful rural East Devon, had a lovely 400 year old home, great views, 20 minutes to the city... local school was not good so we had to pay for a private education, but that school was very very good... in short we had a great life in the UK.  However, like you we just loved France.

Both OH and myself had very stressful jobs running our own business (I had 60 staff and that in itself was a nightmare!) and of course our lifestyle in the UK didn't come cheap!  One day whilst out for lunch with the family my OH collapsed.  He went grey, didn't appear to be breathing or have a pulse and I was more terrified than I have ever been in my life.  We were lucky, and he had just suffered a Vassal Vagel feint... and his blood pressure had fallen through the floor... but it was a very big wake up call for us.  Why were we working our socks off to retire to a place we adored... why not just go now.  Our son was young enough, and when we really thought about it there wasn't any real reason not to do it.  So we did.  We spent a year planning it though... we're not ones to rush into anything!

We've been here 2 years, not long by many standards and the France that we have loved for so long is still the same... I still smile to myself as I walk through Perigueux or Bergerac and tell myself I actually live here!  We lived in rural Devon, we now live in rural Dordogne.  Our local school could not have done more for us, our neighbours are wonderful, the village seems happy to have adopted us as 'the English and we feel very much at home.  Our son plays rugby for the local town... and again we have found the club to welcome us with open arms... I'm even arranging a UK tour for the team next year... (well I'm helping the coach).

Our French isn't perfect but we can hold a conversation and manage to get by without too many problems... and we're learning every day and we have lessons... our neighbour tells us that everyone says how well we have picked up the language, but I think we're being compared to a couple who never managed much more than Bonjour (but they moved back to the UK last year)... our son of course speaks like a local.  The Marie's secretary says he is now French... with a smile... although he told her he would still support England in the rugby!  I struggle with his homework but he has private lessons to help him and our neighbour also volunteers to help.  I don't ever feel that I have lost the bonds... indeed we spend so much more time together now that if anything we're all closer as a family.

I don't know if we'll be still here in 5 years time or 10 years time... I think I've learned to just take it as it comes!  I do know that comparing like for like, facilities wise my son can do the same here as he could in the UK... certainly his favoured sport of Rugby is far better for his age group than it was in the UK and we have been very impressed with this.  He can do a whole host of activities in our village, or the nearby town or in Perigueux or Bergerac... in my opinion, coming from a rural area in the UK his choices are wider here and it is hugely cheaper than in the UK.

As for crime... I don't know.  There were times in the UK when we were aware of gangs venturing down to rural Devon for house-breaking sprees and with an office in our home I did at times feel vulnerable... Our business had equipment stolen and was vandalised for no reason apart from for the fun of it... and I would tire of having to collect used condoms from the business garden (yuck!).  I don't know if it's the same here, I don't think so but maybe that's just perception as we don't see it.  I do know that I have never had to dodge vomit or used condoms in the street (dog poo yes sadly) and like you we have yet to see an outbreak of rowdy drunken behaviour in the same way that we would in the UK.  We went to our neighbours son's 18th birthday a few weeks ago... a few adults but mainly younger folks (blimey that makes me feel old).  No drunken behaviour, no screaming or shouting, no bad behaviour... not even the usual round of tears and arguments that can so often ensue at parties in the UK... it was all just very nice and we had a very good evening... albeit a very late one!!!

If my son was unhappy or indeed one of us, we all agreed that we would return to the UK but... for now I can't imagine living anywhere else.  We're lucky, we're not retired but we can work via the internet... but we don't have to work a lot.  I don't worry about the job market for my son... I'm thinking that I have no idea what the world economy will be doing in 12 years time and trying to guess and plan my life around that would be perhaps a little too cautious.  I would agree that France is not cheap and I think day to day living is much the same overall as the UK. 

I miss some aspects of life in the UK... friends and family of course, familiarity, shopping... the sea-side... but I'm still loving our life here more.

I know that not everyone has found France as welcoming as we have, I know not everyone has been as impressed by the schools and the out of school activities... I know not everyone is fortunate to work on-line... and I know that for a lot of people the move from town to rural is a difficult one... so I guess everyone's journey here is going to be different but... I would say to you... follow your dreams, do your homework and live a little... we have no regrets... apart from taking so long to make up our minds to do it!

[Gemonimo]

What a simply lovely story, Rose.  I'm so glad it has worked out for you but I'm sure you put a lot of effort into making it work. My son was four when we arrived here - he's now 23 - and to all intents and purposes, he is French.  He is off to Bristol University in September for a year where I hope he will perfect his English but he intends coming 'home' to France.  Does it matter if he is French? I don't think so. He is european with a father who was South African and an Anglo/American mother.  Most of all he is a decent, respectful young man regardless of the passport he carries. 

[Rose]

[quote user="Gemonimo"]

 he is a decent, respectful young man regardless of the passport he carries. 

[/quote]

I'd be very happy with that outcome... I can tell you are a very proud parent!  what more can you hope for really?  The best thing a teacher said about our son was that he was the kindest boy in the class... made me well up!  [:$]

[Grimaud dreamer]

Hi Sprogster - since my last post I checked out youth unemployment in UK and France and currently they are comparable sadly.

[Grimaud dreamer]

Rose and Gemonimo

AT LAST!!! Some positive and uplifting stories.  From people it seems who have had realistic expectations when they set out to realise their dream, and whose kids seem great and grounded.  Lovely to hear. Thank you.

 

[Sprogster]

Rose, by your own definition you are semi retired and fortunate in that you have sufficient wealth, presumably from the sale of your succesful UK business, that you don't have to work and moved to France whilst it was still possible as an inactif to affiliate to the French health system.

Those that do not have much in the way of savings and have to earn a living in France, face a very different challenge.

[Rose]

[quote user="Sprogster"]Rose, by your own definition you are semi retired and fortunate in that you have sufficient wealth, presumably from the sale of your succesful UK business, that you don't have to work and moved to France whilst it was still possible as an inactif to affiliate to the French health system. Those that do not have much in the way of savings and have to earn a living in France, face a very different challenge.[/quote]

ummm ... when did I say that? I said I wasn't retired but didn't have to work a lot... meaning in comparison to the very long days I worked in the UK... sorry if I never made that clear.  You are correct in that we moved before the changes to the Health System but I am not an inactif... I started a new business in France.  I didn't mention wealth in my post, nor did I say I'd sold the UK business, and I also dont think I suggested we are living off savings... I can see why you could have assumed this but that's not what I said here.  I may not be as young as I was but I think I have another 20 odd years to go before my pension kicks in... I wish I did have that much in the way of savings but sadly no.

I do understand that for some people the changes in exchange rate and low interest rates and changes to the health care system have made things harder... I can also appreciate that finding work for some folks is difficult... but my intention was to provide some answers to the OP.  I hope I was able to do this. 

I still think that if you have a dream and you have done your homework and you think it is a viable option for you... then you should at least try.  The OP has lived in France for 7 years so will quite possibly knows more about this dear old country than me... but I was just sharing my experiences... I wasn't going to reply at all for fear of being considered too 'fluffy'  but when GM mentioned how he has loved France for decades it struck a chord and felt he deserved a response.

Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression.

[Grimaud dreamer]

Rose

You didn't give the wrong impression to me, I fully understood that you were earning a living from an online business but that you didn't need to work flat out to be able to live.  It is a challenge to live anywhere if you don't have work, or a business and for me, I the biggest challenge I face in being able to move to France is for us to find a way to earn a living.  This would have to be a business as my french isn't good enough to get employment - I also want to be self employed.  I am a photographer and feel I could develop (excuse the pun) this slowly once we move.  We are also property nuts and have expertise in that area.  I have years of travel industry experience, so I think we should be able to find a way to earn our living.  We are not ones to sit on our bums waiting for someone to give us a job.

Your story was inspiring....I am so glad you decided to post it.

  I am enough of a realist to know it won't be easy - but it isn't easy here in the UK either and the weather's rubbish!!

[Panda]

[quote user="Rose"][quote user="Gemonimo"]

 he is a decent, respectful young man regardless of the passport he carries. 

[/quote]

I'd be very happy with that outcome... I can tell you are a very proud parent!  what more can you hope for really?  The best thing a teacher said about our son was that he was the kindest boy in the class... made me well up!  [:$]

[/quote]

You may know that my decision to move back to the UK was based around my sons happiness , my son was also the kindest (by a very long way) child in the school and I was often told this by teachers, this does of course mean the others were not kind and I saw this too often. 

I think girls fair better in french school, girls tend to rally around new girls and take them under their wing, boys on the other hand do not, all very general statements of course.  My experience of rural french boys was not a good one, they were unruly and outright racist and nasty at times, again not all but enough in the last school to have my son in tears on a regular basis.  I complained and was told yes they are nasty boys but what can you do?

If I had my time again I would chose a much larger school in an affluent area where kids have the sense of it being worthwhile going to school and there is a better pool of friends to chose from than the bully gendarmes sons and the gaggle of farmers sons. 

You have the chance to chose well, take the advice given and go for it if that's your dream, no one is saying don't, not at all, just be careful.

Panda

 

[ianmill]

So just where do roads and sewers come into this? I am at least glad to get some support from Rose - and Grimaud dreamer himself - the originator of all this.

Ian

[Rose]

[quote user="Panda"]

My son was also the kindest (by a very long way) child in the school and I was often told this by teachers, this does of course mean the others were not kind and I saw this too often. [/quote]

Hello Panda... I'm really pleased that you have all settled so well and so quickly back into the UK life, it sounds like you had a dreadful time of it over here.  Could I just clarify though that the teacher who made this comment was in the UK... a few years ago now but it still makes me feel happy to think about it. [:D]

[ianmill]

Sprogster - I have been living in France for 15 months - just a baby. I sold my house in Edinburgh at the top of the market - the Scottish system of house buying/selling is different from England - and when we were viewing it was chaos with all the people wandering around.

Like many people I fell in love with France when I was young - I studied French at university, and then was lucky enough to get a civil service job so when offered early retirement in my mid 50s I jumped at it - fat cheque and pension paid imediately.

My wife is also a good French speaker - but as a teacher for almost 30 years it was time to leave the profession which had become more child-minding than education.

We did think of a quiet life but work found us - one day last year two separate French friends told us that the local Chamber of Commerce were desperate for native speakers to teach English - I suppose we average about 10 hours work a week between us. On top of this we have a regular supply of private pupils - from 6 to 55 years old, and we have hosted French children for short immersion stays.

My wife and I consider ourselves to very lucky - we have a simple life and the money we earn will more than cover the cost of the private health insurance we will have to take out at the end of the year - leaving our capital largely untouched for a number of years. We planned our move before Sarkozy's bombshell a few years ago - and budgeted accordingly.

As a Scot I have always been careful to overestimate my outgoings and underestimate my income.

As I said, we have been lucky - and I feel sorry for people who have been caught out by the economic downturn.

But I accept that I chose to live in France - so I have to accept things like pot-holed roads, smelly drains, etc. But again, our main reasons for leaving were a) better weather and b) lower rates of anti-social behaviour. I am glad in this respect to have some support from Rose and Grimaud dreamer himself - many youths in Britain equate enjoying themselves with getting drunk, which in turn very often leads to anti-social behaviour.

Now, as requested by Panda, I'll leave it out. My wife and I are just happy to have found a town in France where the local youth can deal with alcohol in a responsible manner.

Bye

Ian

[Panda]

Hey, hold on, I said leave it out on the mine bigger than yours comparisons! 

I love France, I have said that many, many times.  I hate it though when people start quoting rubbish from the tabloids about how 'shocking' the UK is. 

Come to France because you love it but come with your eyes open, not because of some idea that all is better than in the UK.

[Ladoix]

Grimaud Dreamer,

Follow your dream!  My husband and I have 2 small children (2 and 5) and we love it here in France.  We both have lived and worked here for many years and our children were born here, so don't know any different.  We live in a similar size town to the one's we grew up in and still return to, to visit our parents, so allowing some comparison between there and France.   

France wins hand's down, I feel that living in semi rural France is like going back to the values of my childhood (early 70's).  People say hello to you in the street, the children are amazingly polite at school when I take my daughter in (and the school has children to college age, not just little ones) and she is learning the basics of education by heart - so when she is older she will be able to spell, do mental arithmetic and have excellent table manners, not such a bad education really - it's certainly stood me in good stead.  You should see the canteen menu - not a frite in sight, just a 4 course meal including cheese or yoghurt, at the age of 4 - not cheap though at 4.30€ a day!

For activities, although we live in a small town, we have access to all the usual stuff, swimming, gymnastics, karate, music lessons - the local club des sports has amazing amounts of activities and all for a town of approx 6000 inhabitants.  In the holidays, summer camps abound from the age of 6.

Work wise, my husband has his own carpentry business and I work for a local french company.  One thing that is difficult for foreigners is accepting the lower wages in France but you have to learn to live the French way, old car, growing veggies, not having the all mod cons - silly things like not having a sink in your loo 'cos of the extra tax (though personally, the idea of a loo without a hand basin - [+o(] ).  We don't go without though, we have everything we need, including good wine that we could not afford in the UK - living in Burgundy helps though!

Anyway, for all those who don't like it, there are many of us that are perfectly happy for our children to grow up here and would not inflict a nasty, money obsessed society like the UK on anyone.  We are all different and it all comes down to what you think is the most important in your life, lifestyle or money.  For money, career, future, choose the UK, for living life as you really want to, choose France.

All the best

PS It's also nice giving your kids the choice to be French or English and from what I am led to believe, no one understands teenagers anyway[;-)]

PPS There are some things that are better in the UK but not enough to want to make me live there

[Sprogster]

Rose, I was just referring to your posts back in 2007 when you set out your plans, which involved selling your UK business and if it was big enough to emply 60 people I presumed it must generate a considerable turnover and therefore be quite valuable. But I don't want to put you in a position where you are discussing these sort of details on an open forum, as you have to be careful.

Dare I say you and Ian fall into the honeymoon stage as you have both been in France a comparitively short period of time, as compared to Panda for example. If you are both still in France in 5 years time, you can tell me "you told me so"!!

All I have said to Grimaud Dreamer is that making a living in France, when she is not by her own admittance that proficient in French, will be very difficult, which she concedes. I quite agree that living behind St Tropez is infinitely preferable to many areas of the UK, but unless you are wealthy or have the means to make a good living I am not sure how one could survive long term in the most expensive area of France. The Dordogne it is not!

[Sprogster]

Ladoix, the economics of your plan would not be viable though if you aspired to live on the Cote D'Azur, which is Grimaud Dreamer's intention. Grimaud Village if you don't know is a beautiful village behind Port Grimaud and St Tropez and the housing and living costs are in a different dimension to the areas familiar to most posters on this forum. Heck, we would all move there if we could!