Provision and help for children with aspergers syndrome in france.

[jim the drummer]

We are planning a permanent move to France and have a 9 year old son who has recently been diagnosed with Aspergers syndrome.  Our preferred region is to the southwest of Limoge. We have heard that there is skant provision in the French education system to assist with the additional learning needs of such children, but that this may be changing as the condition becomes more recognised in France.  Has anybody out there personal experience of educating an aspergers or autistic child in France? Are teaching staff sympathetic and trained in the techniques needed to help such children succeed and integrate? Or are such children largely ignored in favour of more conventionally able youngsters?

[Clair]

I have no personal experience and can bring no answers to your questions.

You may find this site useful: http://www.aspergeraide.com/content/category/11/20/38/ (in Google English here)

[Sprogster]

jim, you need to think carefully about the advisability of taking your son to one of the most rural and poorest areas of France, where specialist support is probably unlikely.

Although I have no personal experience, there have been a number of posts on the education section of this forum over the years heavily critical of the lack of flexibility or support in the French educational system for dyslexic children, which does not seem to set a good precedent. 

Clearly careful research on the ground in France is required.

[Cerise]

My nephew in UK - a bright, intelligent, attractive and dynamic lad of 9 - has Aspergers.  In England the help he gets enables him to be happy, friendly and top of his class.  When I have mentioned his Aspergers to French friends, including some who are teachers, they have assumed he is mentally retarded and feel nothing but pity for him and his parents.  My GP has never even heard of Aspergers (and he is young and pretty go ahead).  In our local schools there is NO PROVISION at all for anyone with any sort of learning difficulties.  Any provision there is in any rural area will be in French, as will medical services including psychiatrists.  Are you language skills up to this?

If you decide you really want to go ahead with this you need to to do research, research and more research and above all make sure you can find schools, colleges etc who can deal with it and with whom you are able to communicate.  You need to be aware that in many parts of rural France any form of handicap is still seen as shameful and something which cannot be discussed.

One of the key features of Aspergers is that those with the syndrome find change extremely difficult.  Is it really fair to a child who will have to make extra effort all his life just to keep in par with his peers to force such huge changes upon him, possibly with no or little support.

[Fi]

[quote user="Cerise"]

My nephew in UK - a bright, intelligent, attractive and dynamic lad of 9 - has Aspergers.  In England the help he gets enables him to be happy, friendly and top of his class.  When I have mentioned his Aspergers to French friends, including some who are teachers, they have assumed he is mentally retarded and feel nothing but pity for him and his parents.  My GP has never even heard of Aspergers (and he is young and pretty go ahead).  In our local schools there is NO PROVISION at all for anyone with any sort of learning difficulties.  Any provision there is in any rural area will be in French, as will medical services including psychiatrists.  Are you language skills up to this?

If you decide you really want to go ahead with this you need to to do research, research and more research and above all make sure you can find schools, colleges etc who can deal with it and with whom you are able to communicate.  You need to be aware that in many parts of rural France any form of handicap is still seen as shameful and something which cannot be discussed.

One of the key features of Aspergers is that those with the syndrome find change extremely difficult.  Is it really fair to a child who will have to make extra effort all his life just to keep in par with his peers to force such huge changes upon him, possibly with no or little support.

[/quote]

This has not been my experience at all!  My 5 year old is autistic (no speech, not toilet trained, highly intelligent and very lovable though!)

Through the village school (57 pupils in total) we have made contact with the area special needs coordinator and the school doctor, both of whom are very clued up on the subject of autism and other special needs issues.  Within a month or arriving, we had a meeting where I was advised to make an appointment with the local Hopital de Jours des Enfants for Alex to be assessed.  After the assessment it was agreed that he would continue to attend the local school for a couple of hours a day for socialisation purposes (with the help of an assistant), and he would attend the HdJ twice a week for more specialised help and therapy.  They continue to function during school holidays so the routine is maintained which is helpful.

Additionally the assistant social at the HdJ has helped with all the applications for benefits for Alex - if I get anything I don't understand I can arrange a rdv within days and get any issues resolved.

Through the education service we have applied for, and been allocated, a place in a local CLIS TED class (that is a special needs class within a mainstream school) from September onwards. 

Transport is arranged for him.

If  I have any problems, or worries, or just need a little bit of support, I can always get it from the school, the HdJ or one of the numerous autism support groups (try googling autisme/aspergers plus your intended department to find them - they will be francophone, so you will need some French language skills though).

Oh yes, and I don't pay for any of this!

This is a very rural part of France and I have never had a bad moment with anyone because of Alex's problems.  In fact I have had more sympathy and support here than I have ever had either in the Netherlands or the UK - not once have I had to resort to "he's autistic - what's your excuse for your appalling manners?".  I am very open about Alex's autism (I have to be!), and the "worst" thing that happens is that I have to explain some of the issues - this is not because the person concerned is being nasty, they are genuinely interested and want to understand. 

Yes, it was an upheaval, and no it isn't easy all the time, but I have to disagree with Cerise - the help is there - it is probably something of a postcode lottery so a lot of research will be required though.  It has not been a negative experience for any of us, and now we are settled down, Alex is a much happier child than he was in the Netherlands or the UK.  It's the other two who are having problems settling - it is happening for them but so slowly.  They get lots of extra help with their language skills and maths (for my daughter) at school too.

To the OP, please feel free to pm me - then perhaps a phone conversation would be in order?

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Fi

PS  You could always move to the Vosges instead - it's beautiful here, houses are cheap and I know the help you need exists![:D]

[Patf]

You might find the following thread helpful too, especially the post from Fil at the top of the second page:

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1/773390/ShowPost.aspx#773390

[Cerise]

Fi - very glad to be proved wrong - but as you say probably a regional thing.  You are absolutely right that research, research and more research are the answer.

[jim the drummer]

Thanks for all your help so far. Seems that provision is a bit hit & miss. As has been said, a lot of research needs to be done. Thanks for the links, I'll follow these up & see where we are.

[Deby]

My advice is simply dont!

Fi's experience is a complete one-off.  Its' not hit and miss in France, Limoges is one of the poorest regions in France.  Rural life in France is quite extreme, I believe it is fair to say that children with even the mildest form of difficulties in France are shunned by the local communities. Some still believe that the parents must have done something wrong in order for them to have a child with a 'problem.'

This is probably not what you want to hear, but dont do it.  The UK has some of the best help and facilities in Europe.  Life is hard enough for non-native French children as it is.

Do your research by all means, but do it with a very open-mind and not to justify your move to France.

I am happy that Fi's experience has been positive, but her boy is still young, further down the system things are very different.

Deby

[Fi]

[quote user="Deby"]

My advice is simply dont!

Fi's experience is a complete one-off.  Its' not hit and miss in France, Limoges is one of the poorest regions in France.  Rural life in France is quite extreme, I believe it is fair to say that children with even the mildest form of difficulties in France are shunned by the local communities. Some still believe that the parents must have done something wrong in order for them to have a child with a 'problem.'

This is probably not what you want to hear, but dont do it.  The UK has some of the best help and facilities in Europe.  Life is hard enough for non-native French children as it is.

Do your research by all means, but do it with a very open-mind and not to justify your move to France.

Deby

[/quote]

How very negative.  Deby have you had personal experience of this?  If so, you have my sympathy.  IMHO to say that children with difficulties are shunned by the local community is a sweeping generalisation, along the lines of all Brits wear bowler hats and are hopeless in bed!  There are small minded, ill-informed bigots in all areas of society and in all countries. Ignore them - don't give them the attention they crave!   In what way is rural life "extreme"?  Having experienced rural life in the UK, it really isn't that different (apart from being in French of course!). 

Re services in the UK - have you been keeping up to date with what is happening there?  People waiting 3 years for a diagnosis, a general lack of joined up thinking - education say it is a health issue, health authorities saying it is an educational issue, all the time the poor child is floundering. Without charities such as the Autism Society there would be one large black hole - unless you are rich of course!

My non-native French children are doing OK here - their language is still far from perfect, but they have been accepted, they go on playdates, birthday celebrations, holiday clubs and apart from the usual kid rivalries/"you're not my friend anymore" stuff that is global, it's fine.  Not perfect, but where is?

Not for one moment am I saying that everything in France is wonderful and fab - of course it isn't - but it isn't in some kind of 19th century timewarp in terms recognition, understanding and help for those less fortunate either.

Fi

[Deby]

Yes, it is negative. I am offering my opinion based on my experience.  I taught in French primary schools, several of them in fact, so I feel I can offer some opinion. I am not an expert.  I have also witnessed several instances of  french people just not understanding what special needs are. 

The people who make comments about children or adults for that matter who have learning difficulties or other forms of disability, make these comments out of pure ignorance which is brought about by poor education.  Yes it is a sweeping generalisation, however these attitudes are very prevailent;.

Waiting 3 years for a diagnosis is an awfully long time, but at least the UK has a system in place for a diagnosis, in France children are bundled off to the orthophonist (speech therapist) as soon as the teacher encounters a problem!! Teachers are not trained to deal with these current problems.  The UK is not foolproof but at least it is progressive.

I am delighted that your experience has been positive, but honestly it is extremely rare.  Once your child is out of maternelle things do change and I hate to say this, they are significantly worse.

Deby

[Fi]

He is finishing with the maternelle at the village primary in about 2 weeks' time.  In September he has a place in a CLIS (classe d''integeration scolaire) in a primary school in the nearest town, which he will attend as well as continuing with his sessions at the Hopital de Jour.  He would not get this level of specialised care in the UK.  It simply does not exist  for the majority of autistic children (unless you are in a position to pay or you have a very forward thinking LEA - not many of those about!).  The UK may be progressive in theory, but the reality is that there is no money in the state system for special needs children and they get pushed around from pillar to post because no-one wants to take them on.  Lots of talk, but little action on the ground. I am sure that the same situation exists in France (check any of the French education/parenting/special needs forums - full of worries and complaints!) Putting an autistic child in a mainstream class simply would not work - for the child, it is a distressing experience, and for his classmates a disruptive one (I speak from experience.) 

Going back to my experience here, the village primary directrice admitted she had no experience of autism.  However, she involved the enseignant referant and the school doctor, from the very beginning so we had someone who knew what was available, and, most importantly, how to access it from the start.  She even filled in all the application forms for me! The MdPH has paid for an assistant for him at the maternelle so the teaching staff can teach and there is someone dedicated to Alex.  I think I may have struck lucky, but I can't believe that I am the only person in the whole country to do so  [:)]  I really do hope not.

I think he will do better from September than he has in the maternelle because he will be getting more targeted, specialised help.  I do not expect it to be perfect, and I know I will have to keep pushing for things like speech therapy/OT etc etc.  However, at least he will be in an environment with other children the same as him, with people who, hopefully, know what they are doing.  He will need help and support for the rest of his life - it is my job to make sure that he gets that, and reaches his full potential in whatever way he can.

BTW, it wasn't me who waited 3 years for a diagnosis (we were diagnosed in the Netherlands within about 6 months of realising we had a problem).  The three year wait was headline news in the UK a few weeks/months ago.  Followed by more headline news of the "we've got our diagnosis, now what's available not a lot" variety.

As I said before the ill-informed and badly-educated exist everywhere, not just in France.  I had some of my worst experiences of comments from such people in the "oh so liberal let it all hang out we never judge" Netherlands!  And much kindness and understanding from my French, rural neighbours. 

Fi

[Fi]

One other practical point - pay for proper, native speaker translations of any diagnoses, medical reports, school reports, etc etc.  I think having something immediately comprehensible really helped us - they knew where we were coming from.  We weren't being those (hopefully) apocryphal British expats who expect the UK with a baguette on top in their dealings with their newly adopted country.  "What do you mean you don't speak English - this is France isn't it???" [:D]

Do not even think of using any online translation tool - worse than useless!

Fi

[Patf]

I think there is a difference here between the diagnoses of aspergers and autism. As Cerise says, many professionals have never heard of aspergers, and have no idea of the particular problems that go with it. Whereas most people have heard of autism, sadly, and although definitions are many, everyone knows that it's a difficult condition for a person to have, so there's a degree of sympathy.

So you might find that help is available for an autistic child, but not for a child with aspergers.

I should add that I worked as an ed. psych. for 25 years and the diagnosis of aspergers was virtually unknown then. Even the definition of autism changed dramatically over the years. And dyslexia. I was always opposed to labels anyway.

[Deby]

Fi,

It is so refreshing to hear the help you have had and its good that you have posted your experiences. Hopefully this will encourage others to search for this help which is brilliant for your child  :-)

Deby

[Fi]

Deby

Thank you so much for that.  My apologies if I have appeared slight grumpy/defensive - I am quite an optimistic happy person usually, but life is being slightly tricky at the moment (nothing to do with the children for once).

Anyway, hope you have a great summer season - your place looks great.

Fi

(I feel like my dog looks in the avatar!)

[Sherry]

I have a friend in Sancerre -- she has a 10 year old son with Aspergers and is having a hard time.  Do any of you have any recommendations or know of any support groups in the area that she could check in with?  Being a single working mother is hard enough -- I just want to help but am in the US so have no knowledge.  Thank you.

[Fi]

[quote user="Sherry"]I have a friend in Sancerre -- she has a 10 year old son with Aspergers and is having a hard time.  Do any of you have any recommendations or know of any support groups in the area that she could check in with?  Being a single working mother is hard enough -- I just want to help but am in the US so have no knowledge.  Thank you.

[/quote]

You could start with aspergeraide.com - it's in French but there is a lot of information on there (and a contact form for specific questions about anything, including local support).  Their English section is still under construction, but , hey , it's a French site ....

Hope this helps

Fi

[Sherry]

Thank you.  I sent my friend the site.  I would bet that she has already been to it -- she is very proactive, so I assume she has checked everything.  However, I would assume that being a single working mother and raising two kids severely restricts your time for research. 

[Dijac]

Do you still live in the Vosges. I have just joined this forum, and I livei n the Vosges and my husband and I are convinced that my college age son has Aspergers. A psych nurse at the CMP, just told us they don't like to give labels to children here. So I am a bit at a loss what to do.