Buying a French Registered Car in Spain without a CT

[Howie]

HI,

I wonder if you knowledgable chaps and chappesses can help? ..

I am considering buying a French-registered car which has been used in Spain for the last year or so. It does not have a CT but the owner has the French registration and bill of sale from when he bought it.

Is it possible to insure it so that I can move it from Spain to Brittany?

Also, (having never done this before), is a new CT easy to arrange so that I can re-matriculate it in my own departement?

Appreciate any help. Thanks.

[Sunday Driver]

You can arrange french insurance cover without any problem.  You'll need to produce the carte grise and sign a contract. They'll give you the insurance certificate which incorporates a tear-off vignette which you must display on the car's windscreen.  If you provide them with your UK NCB letter/renewal notice, you'll also get your bonus.

You can also get a CT done easily - it should be done as soon as you reach France, so you'll need to find a local CT station just across the border and make a prior appointment. You'll need to produce the carte grise and proof of residence (utility bill).

Make sure the current owner gives you the old carte grise together with a bill of sale, a certificat de cession (keeper transfer document) and a certificat de situation/non-gage (equivalent to the HPI certificate).

[Howie]

Thank you very much for your help. That's encouraging.

However, i'm not sure if the present owner will have all those documents (or indeed know what they are)! Much like myself really. I will ask him for them anyway.

Appreciate it. H.

[Howie]

Sorry for replying to my own posting, but I got a very fast reply!

The existing owner says that all he has got is a French 'log book' (his description), and his French bill of sale.

Do you think this might cause me some problems?

For what it's worth, I have a VERY poor picture of this 'log book' here..

http://tinyurl.co.uk/hc81

Is this the Carte Grise?

[Sunday Driver]

The picture looks like a carte grise (french 'log book'). [;)]

That's all he'd usually have (plus normally the CT, of course)

The other documents I mentioned are the routine official transfer forms that each seller has to provide to the buyer by law.  He'll get them from his local prefecture.  The first one is the equivalent of the change of keeper form that you send to the DVLA when you sell your car. The second is the equivalent of the HPI certificate - proves there's no outstanding finance or lien on the vehicle and confirms that its not listed as a stolen vehicle.  Its a must have.

[Howie]

Thanks sunday Driver. Invaluable stuff - again!

As my vendor is in Spain, I suspect that he is unable and/or unwilling to venture into French bueurocracy for the necessary forms. Do you think I will be able to get them and take them with me for signature when I collect the car? Thanks again. H.

[Jc]

Be careful;he was using it illegally in Spain and other things like parking tickets and speeding fines may catch up with you.

[Benjamin]

I don't want to sound like a wet blanket here but I'm going to anyway. We have recent experience of living in Spain. It never ceased to amaze me how foreigners, especially Brits and eastern  europeans completely disregarded  the law when it came to vehicles. I know it goes on in France but I don't think anywhere near the extent  it happens  in Spain.

Unless you know the seller exceedingly well you should be aware from other threads on this forum that many people in France keep the carte gris (log book) in the vehicle . Should the vehicle have been stolen, the log book could easily have been in the vehicle and if the owner was particularly careless the original bill of sale could have been in there also.

The certificat de situation/non-gage as pointed out by Sunday Driver, is absolutely vital.

Personally, having seen some of the trading between ex pats down there I wouldn't touch this with a bargepole although I am known for being a bit of a conservative wimp.

If it looks cheap there's probably a reason.

Benjamin

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Howie"]As my vendor is in Spain, I suspect that he is unable and/or unwilling to venture into French bueurocracy for the necessary forms. Do you think I will be able to get them and take them with me for signature when I collect the car? Thanks again. H.[/quote]

I'd assumed that the vendor was local to you and just kept the car in Spain for holidays.

Given the timely warnings posted above, I'd walk away. There's plenty more cars in France.

[Howie]

Thanks for the warning. If I did decide to go ahead, do you know if it's possible for me to obtain a certificat de situation/non-gage before I collect and pay for the vehicle?

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="Howie"]

.....If I did decide to go ahead, do you know if it's possible for me to obtain a certificat de situation/non-gage before I collect and pay for the vehicle?

[/quote]

That means you're actually going ahead with this purchase, doesn't it?

So, just to summarise the position for you:...........

You can obtain a certificat de situation from one of the bornes situated in your local prefecture.  Its free and it'll confirm that the car's not been stolen in France.

But you won't know if its been stolen in Spain.

You'll know that there's no finance or other legal opposition to its sale in France.

But you won't know whether there's any problems in Spain.

You'll need to trailer the van home because its not legally registered in Spain and you're not legal for France.  In France, the fine for driving an unregistered car is 750 euros.  Your new french insurance would be invalid because the car's not legal, and the fine for driving an uninsured car is 3,500 euros plus a three year driving ban.  The vehicle may also be subject to immobilisation and confiscation.  I suspect it will be similar in Spain.

Because this stranger you're buying it from won't provide you with the proper ownership transfer documents required under French law, you won't be able to register it in your name when you get home.

You'll still have to pay to keep it insured in France against third party risks even though it's rotting away at the bottom of your garden.

But then again, if its a bargain.........[8-)].

[Howie]

Erm, - no. Its a genuine question to find out how I could limit the risks if I do decide to buy it.

The assumptions I'm making are:

1/ If it has a french registration and a Carte Grise, then it would have been reported to French authorities if it had been stolen. Therefore, procuring my own CdS would be a fairly safe move.

2/ If I also have the existing owner's bill of sale when he purchased it, - and a bill of sale for my own purchase from him, I am just buying a French car (without a CT) in Spain - aren't I?

3/ (Based on the previous reply from Sunday Driver), Maybe I can also get a certificate de cessation for the vendor to sign at the point of sale?

4/ If the above assumptions are correct, and I then immediately book the vehicle in for a new CT, why would I be unable to register it in my name?

This was, and still is, a genuine enquiry and I admit my ignorance in these matters. However, given that I might be willing to do the necessary legwork on this myself (to make it easier for the vendor), I can't see much difference between exchanging these documents in Spain, or Exchanging them in France - or the UK for that matter. I am perfectly willing (and interested) to hear that I am wrong.

[Jc]

I thought Spanish bureaucracy makes the French look like a bunch of amateurs!

[Benjamin]

It's not Spanish bureaucracy itself, it's the people who administer it. As they all seem to have jobs for life they are only really happy when they find a reason to say "no".

In comparison every French fonctionnaire is a smiling and happy go lucky font of all wisdom who will bend over backwards ro fufil your every wish and desire.

Benjamin