Théière Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 It's been a long time since I looked at this hydrogen topic but it is taking off. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gchGIuIX5U Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 It's gonna come quick when it does:http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/04/the-future-is-here-mass-market-hydrogen-cars-take-to-britains-roads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Yes Wooly in the Corporate guise of maintaining the status quo. It's is just as easy to have a bottle or two of water on board and produce the hydrogen in the car except fuel stations will disappear and oil Co's will quickly go bust! So will Governments and Countries, it will take OPEC down a peg or two though. How much tax will there be on water? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Big oil will produce and sell the hydrogen, something they could start doing easily enough, and will sell it through existing outlets. Taxes will be piled on, as ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 Doing my research on the Prius in France second hand ones are considerably cheaper than the UK when you take into account the exchange rate. They seem to have the same 'number' i.e 20,000 but with exchange rates as they currently bring the price down to the equivalent in sterling of under £15k. The same can be said actually of all the Hybrid cars. The quantity of second hand ones for sale is also much less in France. Clearly the French don't like them very much and second hand ones are difficult to move which could be good news for me. I was thinking they might hold there value better over the next four years as diesel prices go up, if the French let their government go ahead with the tax increase that is. We will see, probably wishful thinking on my part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Q, are you comparing the numbers (20,000) based on the miles/kilometers adjustment?I personally think you are right the French don't like them as much hence depressed 2nd user market. Partly due to the extra mileage you might be doing rurally, any difference around the major cities of france where usage maybe less?I don't agree they will hold their value more as the battery packs are aging you go towards the inevitable cost of battery replacement €€€€ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 [quote user="woolybanana"]Big oil will produce and sell the hydrogen, something they could start doing easily enough, and will sell it through existing outlets. Taxes will be piled on, as ever.[/quote]Everyone with a salt/chlorine swimming pool is already producing the hydrogen so it really doesn't require the Big oil to get involved. mind you if you run out the jerry cans will be a bit heavier [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 [quote user="Théière"]Q, are you comparing the numbers (20,000) based on the miles/kilometers adjustment?I personally think you are right the French don't like them as much hence depressed 2nd user market. Partly due to the extra mileage you might be doing rurally, any difference around the major cities of france where usage maybe less?I don't agree they will hold their value more as the battery packs are aging you go towards the inevitable cost of battery replacement €€€€[/quote]Did that (not absolutly exact but within 2,000km and also model for model as there are different levels of interior but they stay the same across Europe unlike some other makes. If you have a battery check every year with an approved Toyota agent you can extend the battery life for up to 10 years and there are certainly cars around with 10 year or more even on the battery life. Also you could, if you think capable, replace cells in the batteries yourself (plentry of tips on YouTube) although I couldn't be ars*d to do that. You can however get refurbished batteries installed for around £600 in the UK according to what I have seen on the Internet, don't have a clue about in France, yet to be investigated. How good they are is a different matter of course and probably depends on who you use. I must admit the battery was a major concern to start with but the improvement has been significant betweem the mk1 and mk3 Prius has made me less worried. Gardengirl has clocked up a bit travelling back and forth to France so I don't think long trips are a worry. I have read that these cars are also popular with company reps which is why you can find some 2013 cars with very high mileage at lower than normal prices, ones to stay clear of I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 That sounds quite positive Q, you have obviously done your homework. I see them around London far more as minicabs these days, probably with the impending 2020 emission test.Just wish a car maker would make an on board hydrogen generator vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 6, 2015 Author Share Posted November 6, 2015 Unfortunately unless you have the 'plug in' ones when they lowered the C02 emission rate to 75 (1st Jan 2015) the Prius are no longer exempt or liable for a discount according to the TFL website. Interestingly with the exception of the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV you have to send a copy of the conformity certificate. List of exempt cars - http://www.nextgreencar.com/congestion-charge-exempt/ TFL Website (Charges) - https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/congestion-charge/discounts-and-exemptions?intcmp=2133 For Gardengirl, the Yaris is exempt (assuming thats what you were looking at) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Yes Q, and still the automatic motor cycles exemption despite them not being as clean and frequently of similar sized engines but the excuse is that they don't contribute to congestion but the charges are levied on emissions (Co2) and not on size where some Harleys and Goldwings for instance are as large as the inner city cars, Dopey isn't it. Have to admit to fancying the Mitsubishi (after the jag F type[:D] ) or Tesla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 6, 2015 Author Share Posted November 6, 2015 I thought it a bit of a shame that the Ferrari LaFerrari wasn't on the list, I mean it is Hybrid after all. Ok waking up from my dream there does seem to be a bit of confusion over what it (congestion charge) was supposed to do and what it has become which is basically a political thing plus the option to make money. Mind you in fairness at least TFL have invested the money in public transport (new buses and cross London link etc), not alway wisely (Olympics), but at least it helps. Personally I don't intend to visit London again in a car anyway. The nearest I would get is Docklands, Mile End and East Ham all of which are outside the zone. I looked at the map (to make sure they are outside the zone) and noticed Buck Palace is inside, I wonder if Lizzie's new Hybrid Range Rover gets a discount........... [;-)] I mean government cars are exempt (so Camerons OK) but the Queen is not part of the government last I heard nor are her family. Perhaps Boris has given her a 'get out of jail card'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 A question for Gardengirl. Had an American couple stay last night who just happen to own a Prius. They said it was naff because it couldn't get up hills which would be a big problem for me. Apparently the power just drops off as does the speed and they say any advantage fuel wise gained on the flat is then lost on hills. Is this true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 No answer from GG yet so i thought i would put it back at the top of the threads.I believe that is true Q, as it has the equivalent battery weight of two or three passengers. Can't remember the weight now but I looked at a few years back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardengirl Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 [quote user="Quillan"]A question for Gardengirl. Had an American couple stay last night who just happen to own a Prius. They said it was naff because it couldn't get up hills which would be a big problem for me. Apparently the power just drops off as does the speed and they say any advantage fuel wise gained on the flat is then lost on hills. Is this true?[/quote]Been busy plus flew back to France.My husband and I discussed this, so this is a joint answer; his consumption figures are in L/100km. He keeps a record of consumption when filling up, has done for most of our cars.We've driven up Mont Ventoux as well as Scottish mountains and in the French Alps and dIdn't have any problems. We encounter some long and steep hills on the A6 in France which are climbed at the speed limit; there is sometimes an increase in engine noise which gives the impression that the car is struggling when it isn't.Of course, the Americans may have previously had a big tank type of car, we don't know what they were comparing the Prius with. But we changed from a Saab and a Porsche 944 to the Prius - not as exciting driving but a huge difference in fuel consumption and therefore in the pocket.Regarding fuel economy, the ideal conditions are a warm day on a fairly flat road at a steady 90kph. If the terrain is hilly, temperature lower, or speed higher the fuel consumption will increase, but the same also applies to any other car. Under ideal conditions we've seen 3.6l/100km. In a cold winter with mainly short journeys the consumption has risen to 5.7l/100km.Our average consumption measured over 80,000km is 5.2l/100km. When comparing the Prius with ordinary powered cars remember that fuel consumption is only one of the advantages. Also it is an automatic and is normally very quiet, giving relaxed driving, and has excellent acceleration from stationary. It can certainly give boy racers a shock at traffic lights when in power mode - but of course, that affects fuel consumption, but it's fun once in a while.The only way to find out if it will suit you is to take one on a test drive around your normal routes, which is what we did before we actually bought one. We live on a hill in England, with other hills around us, not huge hills, but they are part of our everyday driving there. If your if area is extremely hilly and you would be constantly climbing them, a Prius might not be suitable for you. Our first rides in a Prius were about 8 years ago when the car we hired from Nimes airport was a Prius. It was a case of first find how to switch on - a drive around the car park was very necessary, and we enjoyed the novelty for those few days. Having looked into it when we were giving up our final Saab, it seemed it would suit us and it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Quite surprised, the actual fuel consumption isn't that much better than my old Renault Scenic DCI although I will happily admit your emissions will be much lower.Still with the Hydrogen theme.http://www.boconline.co.uk/en/processes/hydrogen-refuelling/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 Thank you GG for your very comprehensive reply. I agree with the comment about getting similar ltr/km as a diesel car but that's not really the point because we are talking petrol v diesel. If you bought a petrol powered Scenic you would get on average 38.2mpg (7.4ltr/100km), I mention this as it was the make and model Théière gave as a diesel for comparison. Of course there is also the performance, the Prius is just over 2 second quicker getting from 0 to 60 mph, not bad for a family car. I found the weight of the battery by the way, it has gone down over the years and is now 53kg on the Prius 3 (average human weight is 70kg so my computer says) and will be less again in the 2016 model which will use lithium batteries. I think diesel cars are going to come under a lot of stress with regards to emissions. This business with VW I feel is only the tip and I can't honestly imagine they are the only ones on 'the fiddle'. As said there is a lot of pressure to ban them from big cities, I believe I read somewhere that Paris is looking to ban them under certain conditions and once one French city does it others will follow and then large towns. Toulouse is my nearest big city which I visit once or twice a year (Christmas market being popular with the family) and being the 4th biggest in France I can't see it would be very long before they implement the same rules as Paris. There is also the issue of fuel costs which I mentioned at the beginning. Out of GG's 'report' the interesting and more realistic figure is the consumption over 80,000km, something that is difficult to find for other cars and it sounds about what I would expect really. My 308SW does tell you average consumption over a period and whilst if I reset it before a long run it gives excellent average consumption it's not so good in normal life running around here. I don't know if it is an urban myth but many have said you need to drive a diesel for quite a few kilometers before it gets to the right temperature and economy. As to Hydrogen cars, well let's be honest it will be a long time before they become common place and the price of an average family car being currently £66k will be a killer for them as will be the lack of refueling stations. I will probably be in my grave before they become common and the same can be said of self driving cars. Thats not say they are not a brilliant idea and should be dismissed out of hand. Anyway GG you have put my worry to bed about hills and you explination of it being an automatic was something I was thinking but needed confirmation on. To be fair you could have said the same about my old Discovery which was automatic, it would change down on steep hills and there would be a change in engine noise and at certain speeds on steep hills would 'hunt' between 3rd and 4th meaning you had slow down or speed up to keep it in one gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Interesting reply Q, obviously the stories of heavy batteries is now confined to the past, one thing of Toyota, they don't rest on their laurels, Loved all of my previous Toyotas.Not waving the banner for diesels but they don't need a choke like petrols so they are more economical from the off, this was proven on fuel consumption from my previous Volvo petrol model to and from the station only, it probably only just got off choke and did use quite a bit of petrol over a two week period, the diesel you don't notice at all. Diesels don't work well if they are too cold through a fault like a broken thermostat but otherwise good. Anyway out of your equation I can tell.I remember when autogas vehicles came on the scene, it didn't take long for the refueling stations to roll out the gas pump so I can't imaging the issue would take that long to correct but yes it's not a current consideration unless all journeys go via Swindon [:)]Prius estate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 [quote user="Théière"]Interesting reply Q, obviously the stories of heavy batteries is now confined to the past, one thing of Toyota, they don't rest on their laurels, Loved all of my previous Toyotas.[/quote] Actually I wonder if the myths about the battery weight was spread by the automobile manufacturers in the US where the Prius has been very popular especially amongst celeb's who seem to think they are making a statement of some kind. If you do a bit of Googling it appears that the weight has only come down by about 10kg since the first V1 and V3, it's just the storage and power levels that have increased. The batteries are made by Panasonic (I discovered during my search) and are used in most of the electric/hybrid cars. The only issue is they use a lot of rare 'earth' minerals like Neodymium and Lanthanum as do wind turbines apparently but again scare stories about these may well be generated by the global climate change deniers and the ‘greens’. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 [quote user="gardengirl "] Our average consumption measured over 80,000km is 5.2l/100km. [/quote] They will have to improve more and the price of diesel in France will have to exceed that of petrol for them to make a saving for me, my average consumption over 10 years and 120000 miles has been 5 L/100kms (57mpg) the best I have ever achieved was 4L/100kms, the average includes many trips towing trailers including a massive flat fronted box trailer 2.7m high by 2.2M wide which did several round trips to the UK. Mine is an old generation non electronic VAG TDI diesel so wont be affected by the current scandal the recall of which will leave the vehicles with significantly increased fuel consumption, my vehicle has now done 302000 miles without any problems although I did change the battery after 10 years. Why dont they make diesel hybrid vehicles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 [quote user="Chancer"] Why dont they make diesel hybrid vehicles?[/quote] They do and there are lot of makes including VW, try Googling. You can even get a Range Rover diesel hybrid if you have a spare £150k in your back pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 Good Panorama program on the VW "scandal" and also other interesting stats on diesels in general.Shame about the retired civil servant who hadn't run any other tests in his career other than the government tests so was blissfully un aware of anything outside of his bubble. waste of a life and a pension for all the use he was. It shows how bad things can get with NO2 production and it made me want to trade cars.I have seen Prius estates so may stop by and take a look in the local Toyota dealership.For those that missed it it's available on iPlayer http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06q6nh2/panorama-the-vw-emissions-scandal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share Posted November 28, 2015 I watched that and as I thought it is not just VW. Interestingly the Vauxhall/Opel was, what was it now, 6 times more than the spec although they didn't try to hide the results by software unlike VW. Also interesting was the list challenging the validity of the test and that Vauxhall/Opel were right and the tests were all wrong. I bet they would have a field day with the French cars as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Yes that kind of the saddest bit, us the public believe the crap we are fed (until there is an enquiry and some real data comes out) So apart from trying to drive your diesel according to exactly how the test is carried out it will be producing many many more times the amounts of NO2 etc making the whole thing pointless.Same with Euro NCAP it's another non test on safety this time. Based on a crash test at 30mph. What car wouldn't pass? Accidents and crashes usually occur at excess speed so what happens at 30 is no relevance to what happens at 50-60 mph and the test doesn't take into account the combined speed of two motor vehicles meeting so unlikely to be a crash at less than 60mph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Théière Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Q, you have done your home work, the batteries maybe lighter but combined with the electric motor gear the Mitsubishi PHEV according to the video is around 200kg of extra weight hence the Toyota Prius vs another model, any comment?I think I am pretty much sold on the Mitsubishi PHEV to the point of probably booking a test drive at some point. A lot of good videos out there to watch.http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/outlander/gallery.aspx#video-header Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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