Permis de construire - 170 sq.m rule

[Menace]

Hi folks, slight confusion on the 170 square metre rule. Can  someone more knowledgable than I explain! We have a long barn for renovation, total internal floor space 163.8 square metre (ground and attic) measured from the internal wall face. The problem however, is an attach extension some 30m square with its own access. The building do however share a common roof.  As stated, access is not possible from the barn. The question is, do I have to include this in the 170 square metre??. By the way, I was hoping to undertake the work myself. Your expertise welcome!.

Denis (14)

 

[Nick Trollope]

My interperation of the situation is that if the total surface area of the dwelling (excluding rooms smaller than a certain size/height, garages & the like) is greater than 170m2, then you must use an architect. I don't think that access is an issue. In your case, whilst you can deduct something from your 163.8 m2, for allowable "deductions", you must add the 30m2. BUT, a quick visit to your Mairie would confirm (or otherwise) this.

[Alcazar]

I may be mistaken, but I thought the floor area was measured from the OUTSIDE for these sort of things? Certainly, my architect took all measurements from the outside.

Also, if your barn is ATTACHED to anything else, another living area, that has to be included in the calculation.

Alcazar

[Gyn_Paul]

[quote]I may be mistaken, but I thought the floor area was measured from the OUTSIDE for these sort of things? Certainly, my architect took all measurements from the outside. Also, if your barn is ATTACHED ...[/quote]

"....Also, if your barn is ATTACHED to anything else, another living area, that has to be included in the calculation..."

 

Yes, this is the downside to the fact that if the barn is attached (and on the same parcel of land on the plan cadastral), then you don't normally need a separate certificat d' urbanisme.

 

paul

[Menace]

Thanks for all your help. I will obviously have to commission a French registered architect to submit my Permis. No doubt my plans will also have to be redrawn, having spent some considerable time at the drawing board... Well, off to Vire and the surrounding areas in the half term to locate an architect, hopefully one who speaks a little english.

Denis.

 

[Lachouette]

[quote]Thanks for all your help. I will obviously have to commission a French registered architect to submit my Permis. No doubt my plans will also have to be redrawn, having spent some considerable time at ...[/quote]

We were in a similar position to you in that we had already got drawn up plans and needed a French Architect because of the 170 sq m rule.  Our architect (87) took the plans as they stood, stuck a couple of French labels on them, although left most of the English, took the photos of before and superimposed after, and completed the 'demande' for us - so you might not have to wait for your plans to be redrawn.  Our permis came through in less than a month.  Our local mairie thought they might be trying to clear their desks for the Christmas break!

Jan

[Sashabel]

When we looked into this for our renovation project, we were informed that any room space with a ceiling height of less than 1.8 metres did not come into the 170 sq. m. rule.  So if your barn is not a very high one and you are using some of the roof space to convert into bedrooms, you may have some floor space lower than 1.8 metres high - this can be deducted from the total amount.

In our case (renovating a traditional longere) the overall floor space would have taken us over the 170 sq. m. ruling, but as the upstairs walls were only 1.5m high, we managed to lose just the right amount square metres to bring it below this figure and all we then needed was the permit.

We also submitted our plans showing the room sizes and not the total floor area.  With some of the internal walls being nearly a metre thick, we lost quite a few more square metres here as well.

Hope this helps

Sasha

[ClaraQ]

Our French neighbours thought it was hilarious that we were planning to use an architect when we realised our property was over the 170m. ruling. They told us that no-one ever checks the measurements (especially if the location is quite rural and over 15km from the french planning office) and that unless you have a huge property that is obviously over 170 metres you just juggle your figures a bit until they come in at around 165ish.

It might have been a nit naughty, but it worked for us and we got our permis de construire by just drawing up our own plans on graph paper.  They wanted drawings of the front, back, both sides and how the property stood on the land (i.e. if the land sloped).

We also just gave room sizes and not the overall house size just as Sasha said and this also saved us quite a few square metres. The minimum 1.8 metre room height ruling he/she mentions rings a bell as well.

Clara

[Gyn_Paul]

Is it literally the wall height?

When assessing a barn you can't just use the wall height where it then proceeds to sweep upwards to a roof apex, can you ?

Surely you've got to average the height across the room. ???

paul

 

[Sashabel]

It's any part of the room that has a ceiling height of less than 1.8 metres that is excluded from the 170 square metre ruling.  For example, if your total space on the first floor is 90 square metres, but where the roof meets the walls the height is only 1 metre, and your roof only has a shallow pitch to it, then you need to show this on your application.  You could have a house with 90 square metres on the ground floor and the same in the grenier, but using this calculation you could well come in under the 170 square metre ruling and not have to employ an architect.

Sasha

[Menace]

[quote]We were in a similar position to you in that we had already got drawn up plans and needed a French Architect because of the 170 sq m rule. Our architect (87) took the plans as they stood, stuck a cou...[/quote]

Well, having read the last few postings I am now kicking myself. If only I had been tad economical with my measurements this situation would not have risen... does honest really pay!.

Denis