Confused - "permis de construire" or "declaration de travaux"

[Robina]

Hi,

I'm a newcomer to renovation in France and am now very confused about whether I need to apply for a "declaration de travaux" or a "permis de construire" for the new bedroom we are planning to build.  My builder says the former (in French) as do friends, but my book says the latter (in English).

So here are a few details:  the property consists of a small farmhouse with adjoining stable and barn in Nievre in Burgundy.  The bedroom will be four metres by four metres (approx) (including ensuite shower room) and is being constructed within the adjoining stable at first floor level.  The stable has already had a bathroom built at first floor level at the back and the bedroom will be constructed in the front half.  This will entail the creation of a new floor at first floor level and installing two windows in the front of the building.  There are no problems with proximity to another property or anything else that would make windows a problem (as far as I know!).  The lower floor of the stable will continue to be used as it already is, as the laundry.

I suspect this counts as "converting an outbuilding" and/or "creaton of additional accommodation" and therefore requires a 'permis'  but others argue that the outbuilding has already been converted into accommodation (by virtue of the bathroom being in there) so  only needs a 'declaration'.  The builder said to get the 'declaration' forms from the mayor - which I now  have and they seem to indicate (in french) that I need the others. Help!

Anyone know the answer?

Robina

 

[Bobc]

You seem to be in a bit of a 'grey area'.

It really comes to the 170m2 rule. If the total floor area of the stable is over 170m2 then you need a PdC, regardless of what is already in there.

If it is under, but attached to the house then some DDE's will take the total area of the house and stable.

In 47 the DDE is now incredibly tight on changes to outbuildings.

My advice would be to take some drawings of want you want to do, along to your Mairie and ask for their advice.

If you have a decent builder, then he should sort out all the applications for you.

Good luck with your project!

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

[Robina]

Bob,

Thanks for the information.  I've not come across the 170m2 rule.  If I add the house (about 54 m2), the stable (about 54) and the barn which adjoins it (possibly a bit bigger) I get pretty close to it.   I am trying to do it all from a distance so going along to the Mairie is not so simple but I will see what can be done.  I have done some scale drawings and the builder did offer to help so ... fingers crossed.

Robina

[Val_2]

It does get a bit confusing but personally I would submit a full Permis de Construire to cover yourselves in case of any future bureaucratic problems. A Déclaration is a mild application with a construction limit of 20m² or for insertion of new windows/doors etc. As you are creating a lot more living space, you will also be paying higher Taxes at the end of the work. Rules have been tightened all over the country now and a Permis de Construire could also force you to have your drainage inspected as well before being granted.

[Robina]

Thanks for this. 

I am going to have to improve the drainage in any case.  The builder and the Mayor made a site visit some weeks ago and I have been told what I have to install.  It had not occurred to me that I needed permission for the fosse septique because the Mayor had stipulated it - but from what you say I conclude that this will need including on the forms.  I will get the PdC forms. 

One supplementary question: as I already have the DdT forms could I submit these straight away for a separate small job?  I plan to instal two velux windows in the roof at the back of the house itself?  Or should I just submit one PdC with everything on?

... and a second supplementary: to put up some guttering where there is currently none.  Does this require anything at all?  It does not impinge on anyone else's property.

Robina

[Coco]

Speaking from recent personal experience I would suggest doing the two separately.  We applied for a permis to get the barn converted and also a DT for a velux put into the existing part of the house.  The permission for the velux took about two weeks to come through, whereas the permis took two months.  So if you'd like to get your veluxes in quickly, I'd apply separately!

[Val_2]

Guttering is fine to put up without permission provided that you comply with the requirement i.e. zinc on older properties etc and that you do not discharge onto another neighbouring property direct. Zinc is actually favoured by the pompiers in case of fire as plastic guttering cannot stand the heat and their ladders need somewhere to hook onto.