Declaration de Travaux timescales

[vickybear]

OK, can't find the answer!!  Have searched for this and after the first 8 pages gave up!

I submitted a Declaration de Travaux on 16th November to the Mairie which has been acknowledged in writing dated 16th November.

I have no idea what happens next. Can I assume it was completed ok after 2 weeks?

Can anyone let me know what I can expect to receive and when I can start work. It's for a window in the side of the house.

Many thanks in advance.

[Cassis]

There are no hard and fast rules - depends if the request has to be referred on for approval. 

Rule of thumb: one month from when the declaration is deposited at the mairie if the file is complete, 2 months if it has to be referred:

1- Dossier complet

Sauf opposition notifiée dans le délai d'un mois à compter de la

réception de la demande en mairie les travaux peuvent être exécutés

sous réserve, le cas échéant, des prescriptions notifiées dans le

même délai.

Dans le cas ou les constructions ou travaux envisagés nécessitent

l'avis d'un service dépendant d'une autorité différente de l'autorité

signataire (Architecte des Bâtiments de France par exemple) , ce

délai est porté à deux mois.

Le déclarant en est informé dans le

mois du dépôt du dossier.

2- Dossier incomplet

Le déclarant est invité à déposer

les pièces complémentaires obligatoires dans le mois suivant le dépôt

du dossier en mairie.

Le délai au terme duquel les travaux

peuvent être entrepris part alors de la date de réception en mairie

des pièces complémentaires réclamées.

This site is a useful source of info on declarations:

http://www.herault.equipement.gouv.fr/autorisations_construire/declatrav.htm#03

[vickybear]

Thanks Cassis,

The file was hopefully complete as I saw the planning officer before submitting it and she told me then what was missing, so I went home and completed what she said.

So assuming the dossier is complet, after one month from the date the Mairie said they had it can I start the work, or do I wait for something in writing saying I can. I also read somewhere that I have to oput something up outside. What is this and when does it go up?

Sorry to ask further questions but my French could be better and I don't want to get it wrong.

[Wozza]

My permis was late back from the DDE - the mayor told me to crack on.

You have to put up a sign outside your house with permis number etc on it - you can get a blank sign from most builders merchants for free (as it has their name on it, so effectively unpaid advertising).

 

[Nick Trollope]

Sorry, but my understanding is that the timing is 2 months (in as much that they undertake to give you an answer within 2 months, unless a 3rd party is involved) and that you cannot start work until the descision has been reached. There is no guarantee that a DdeT will be accepted (otherwise it would be pointless). Besides which, others have the right to object up to 2 months after the descision is posted in your Mairie.

If you proceed without permission (of any sort) you may be required to undo the work. (you could also be fined).

As an example a local (to me, Brit) householder wanted to fit a Velux - no problem said the Mairie - put in a Dec de Trav... So he did, and fitted the Velux. Descision can back - OK, but the Velux must be flush-fitting - whole thing had to come out & the fitting kit replaced. I had a Velux respecified as the next size down, and I was not allowed to paint my house in the colour we chose, etc etc etc...

 

[Deimos]

Don't quote me on this (and I have yet to submit mine), but I thought a Declaration de Travaux was different from Permis de Construir in that it was not "approved as such but rather the authorities have to take the (time limited) opportunity to say "No". i.e. with a DdT you submit it and if after the time limit (which I though was around a month - but not sure) you have heard nothing then its fine. As what you can do under a DdT is far more limited it is intended as a simple way of getting approval without all the "grief" of a full Permis.

On the paperwork I am preparing for mine (excerpt from speet No 50014#01) says

"Dans le délai d’un mois à compter de la réception du dossier complet de la présente déclaration, l’autorité compétente (le maire ou le préfet) peut faire connaître par un avis motivé qu’elle s’oppose à votre projet ou qu’elle lui impose certaines prescriptions.

Ce délai est porté à deux mois lorsque les travaux projetés nécessitent la consultation d’autres autorités au titre d’autres législations ou réglementations publiques (sites, abords de monuments historiques, autres servitudes d’utilité publique). Dans ce cas, vous en êtes directement avisé dans le mois du dépôt de votre déclaration.

L’absence d’opposition dans le délai d’instruction d’un mois ou, le cas échéant, de deux mois mentionné ci-dessus, vaut accord sur le projet et les travaux peuvent être entrepris conformément à la déclaration déposée."

(from articles L. 422-2 ou L. 441-2 du code de l’urbanisme)

My French is not great but my interpretation of the above is that its 1 month. They can tell you this is being extended to two months if they need to make referrals, but they have to tell you that within the 1 month as well. Absence of objections needs to be posted with the DdT info close to property when starting works, etc. (normal thing in same way as you have to post Permis for all to see).

Ian

[Cassis]

Ian's extract from the form seems to confirm what that DDE website says almost word for word.

[Nick Trollope]

This rather flies in the face of what I have learnt having done about 20 DdeT. About 3 have been modified before approval (usually revolving around flush-fitting veluxes). A client of mine near here had a DdeT refused (for a window). In fact, they said that it should be a permis, which was subsequently also rejected.

If a DdeT was not refusable, what would be the point in the "approval" process?

 

[Deimos]

[quote user="Cassis"]Ian's extract from the form seems to confirm what that DDE website says almost word for word.
[/quote]

I cut and pasted it from the form (which I was given in electronic form as well).

[quote user="nicktrollope"]

If a DdeT was not refusable, what would be the point in the "approval" process?

[/quote]

My understanding of the French bit is that it can be refused but must be refused with one month of it being submitted. If it needs referring on to somewhere else then this can be extended to 2 months but the applicant has to be told about it being referred (and thus 2 months) within the original 1 month period. It can be refused, just needs to be refused within the 1 (or 2) month period.

One of my Mairies is quite inefficient and it will probably take them more than a month to notice I've submitted one. I am thus waiting until they are particularly busy before submitting it so it will be after the 1 month before they even get round to looking at the form - which is why I am particularly interested if I have understood the requirements correctly.

(I suppose I'm lucky in that one commune is hyper efficient and helpful and will bend over backwards to provide info and help and be thorough, whilst the other is "less so". I thus tend to pick and chose a bit about who I ask about what).

Ian

[Cassis]

I have nothing like Nick's experience of DdT and PdC having done only a couple of each myself.  DdT can obviously be refused, but the regs say that it must be refused within one month of it being

submitted. If it needs referring on then this can be

extended to 2 months but the applicant has to be told about it being

referred within the original 1 month period.  If you hear nothing within one month then the regs say you can go ahead with the work. 

I can't see any cop-out clause for an incompetent mairie to object at a later date.

[vickybear]

I like the sound of one month as there are only another 13 days to go!

If I hear nothing within the month and commence work, how can I put my sign up outside with the permission number on it but, more worryingly, does the additional 2 months the neighbours have to complain still stand or is that just forfull P de C? If it's also relevant for a Declaration, what's the point of saying you can start after a month if you're asked to fill in the hole again within the next 2 months?

If I could just get clarification on these points I can relax!

 

[Nick Trollope]

Let us know how you get on, please. I am still worried about the "go ahead if you haven't heard" issue (which is what Ians posting confirms) - it certainly won't work like that here.

How will you know if you have 1 or 2 months to wait?

[Deimos]

[quote user="nicktrollope"]

How will you know if you have 1 or 2 months to wait?

[/quote]

[quote user="Deimos"]

My understanding of the French bit is that it can be refused but must be refused with one month of it being submitted. If it needs referring on to somewhere else then this can be extended to 2 months but the applicant has to be told about it being referred (and thus 2 months) within the original 1 month period.

[/quote]

[quote user="Cassis"]... but the regs say that it must be refused within one month of it being submitted. If it needs referring on then this can be extended to 2 months but the applicant has to be told about it being referred within the original 1 month period.  If you hear nothing within one month then the regs say you can go ahead with the work. 
[/quote]

I think there are national regulations, not local and are quite explicit (i.e. not open to the French "interpretation") - so same should apply everywhere. Are you sure your customers are not getting confused between DdT and PdC or are not submitting a PdC when a DdT would be enough ?

Ian

[Nick Trollope]

No, these are applications done by me (often on someone else's behalf). Another example (around here), no Dec de Trav (or PdeC) will be "approved" unless one can prove that your sanitation is up to date (another client has a Dec de Trav - for a window - refused because they had no fosse. They installed the fosse & the window was subsequently approved). If they had installed the window regardless, then they would have been in the do-do (pun intended). I'm not sure how long the refusal took, but it was more than 1 month (because they received a "delay" letter - the file had been passed to Batiment de France) etc etc. If a DdeT effectively can't be refused, then I don't understand ......!!!

 

[Deimos]

[quote user="nicktrollope"]

...  If a DdeT effectively can't be refused, then I don't understand ......!!!

[/quote]

Again, it can be refused but has to be refused within one month (or two if delayed and provided the delay notification is provided within the first month). Nobody is saying they cannot be refused, just that the refusal has a time limit. If not refused within the time limit then it is automatically approved.

IAn

[Brilec]

Our DdeT was for a Velux. We were not given any particular timescale, but it did come back just over a month later with the "Sans Opposition" box ticked. Seems to me that it is worth waiting to get the form back before starting work as otherwise, for the sake of perhaps a week, you might have far more problems on your hands. It could also reduce your chances of permission for further improvements.

Surely the sign outside refers to the permis de Construir rather than the DdeT.

[Keni]

In reply to nicktrollope, I think your problem comes in with the Batiments business. The colour of house painting and other works which can be refused is usually if you are in the vicinity of a chateau - as we are. We are opposite the ancient chateau, so cannot paint the house other than grey etc, can't even repair the rendering without it going via the marie/batiment etc. I understand from others around here they have no problems, only us, because we are 'en face'. Keni