Weird

[BIG MAC]

A number of our larger projects on the old place have been holding us up and preventing us from getting the use from the house that we would like (Predominately the reroofing and building of dormers)

We bit the bullet and met with quite a few builders looking for that elusive thing, the contractor that gets what we are about, what we want to achieve and how budget is important.

With some trepidation we invited various people in to discuss the works and by and large all nice folks they were too but one way and another there was always a niggle be it no track record, too expensive, insufficient capacity (1 man and van get to you when I can) etc.

With all the tales of French Builders rolling up when they feel like and pretty haphazard ways of operating we were giving up hope of finding our ideal when lo and behold a friend introduced a carpenter who introduced a builder who just happens to be an Englishman of Scots ancestry but trading in France and employing French people, all above board, SIRET in place, happy to show ongoing projects and  with a trading history............Hey that's looking good so far....guess the next bit will be the DEVIS which requires us to part with various internal organs along with the proverbial arm and leg.....err no...costs comparable with UK if not marginally cheaper, anything discussed but not finding its way onto the DEVIS happy to include or not dependent upon what is felt fair so basically each side knows exactly what is required of the other. All done in a friendly and professional way, thus far.........

Question...Do I wake up with a start and realise that I have been dreaming?

Question...Is the builder going to melt away with the cash like snow off a dyke?

Question..Dare we hope that the chap and his team are every bit as good as they appear?

My understanding is using a Registered business and formal DEVIS you have a degree of protection, are there any other things to watch out for, is it down to us to check that the SIRET No covers the required trades? should we be asking for sight of insurances and skills papers for the guys or is that all a wee bit too UK and may be seen as rude?

You know how it goes if it seems too good to be true.................

[Danny]

Big Mac

If it was me, having had people to do things in our house and regretted the way we did things...

I would not have any hesitation in asking to see their previous work and talk to their previous clients. If they are good and trustworthy, they will be happy and hopefully proud to show you. If they make it difficult, well I am sure you can draw your own conclusions.

I have a menuisier/ebeniste friend here who I would recommend to others and I know that he would be happy to show potential clients how good his work is. That is the kind of artisan I would like. Same should apply to anyone involved in building.

I think that 'haphazard ways of operating' are ( broad generalistion!) part of the culture in France - it can be difficult to juggle various jobs. If you want things doing, you have to push (in a polite way of course) It is expected. If you don't let them know, it is assumed that it is not urgent.

it sounds to me as if you have the right idea.

Personally, I think that  any decent artisan will be registered and give you a proper devis - with time limits written - but so can the chancers and the cowboys so just be careful.

Regarding payments, it is reasonable to ask for a small percentage at the acceptance of devis for the purchase of materials etc and all the rest will be done in stages with the final payment upon satisfactory completion. Do not pay too much too soon. It is possible to end up having given out cash only to find that the artisan does not answer your calls. You can be sure that you will get a response if he is waiting for payment.

I suppose it is a matter of trust on both sides...

Good luck

Danny

PS thank you for your "how to put in a shower properly" post - it helped me a lot last year and now we have a mighty fine shower with no probs at all

 

[BIG MAC]

Hi Danny,

 

Happy I could help.

It's a bit like seeing your baby walk for the first time this! I intended doing all the work myself but vertebrae, and timescale preclude this.

Thus far being able to sort out the detail in English (My French is awful and no amount of tapes/CDs are helping) and having someone who is very organised helps. We are putting 30% of a largish sum up however this is for material on site. We will then go on a 6 weekly interval schedule of payments for next two 30%'s then a 10% retention to sign off.

There will need to be sufficient progression for us to release subsequent payments and contractor is happy that I know what I am on about and can post measure. I am impressed enough thus far but as is the way with these things you can only ever shorten the odds, nothing is absolute.

Me being Me I am already thinking If I am not doing those bits...I can get on with creating my workshop!.....WHAAAHHAAAAYYY!!

[Babbles]

Our last house we used a registered builder and had quite lengthy Devis for each job, but if we missed anything out or something unexpected arrose it always seemed more expensive than it should of been, the time to be pedantic is when the Devis is being written and get everything you could possibly want included, some jobs the materials and quality don't vary much in price but thingss like door and window furniture do so its worth specifing.

[Punch]

As well as the obvious SIRET check, probably one of the most overlooked checks you should make is to ask your builder for a copy of his attestation for his decenelle insurance to see if he is actually registered for the trades he claims he is, and wether he has public liability insurance (responsabilité civile) - then ring the insurance company to check. 

As in the above post, your Devis should also be quite detailed listing everything you are getting, so at the time of completion there are no nasty surprises.

I run a building and renovations company and we pay insurance premiums of around 3500 euros per year just for this alone . Not many insurance companies cover multi trades anymore and any new companies who boast to do this, you should be wary of .We have a track record of 11 years no claims so at our renewal this year we were accepted again.

Many of the "builders" I come across in my area ( and yours too I think), don't even bother with this insurance although it is a legal requirement. Do not be embarrased to ask for this paperwork, I happily would show it to anyone who asks and welcome these questions, and you may regret it later down the line if you run into difficulties with your builder. I will gladly help you and look over any paperwork completely free of charge and without obligation - I can also tell you if your Devis is legal and at the market price. PM me if you are interested. By the way I am not looking for work - we have enough for the time being. I am just tired of competing with non legal and non registered businesses.

Just make sure that everything is agreed beforehand to avoid problems further down the line .I wish you the best and hope that all goes well.

www.punchardrenovation.com

[BIG MAC]

Many thanks for the kind offer re checking our chap out however I would no sooner do this to him than I would do likewise vice versa. Insurances we are advised check out and I have asked for sight of the policy documents prior to commencement. I have also checked that materials on site are fully insured and will advise our buildings fabric insurer likewise.

Builder has been trading for about 5 years and is known to a few people who we know. I am issuing by e-mail prior to signing DEVIS a schedule of principal requirements and clarifications, stuff like: The contractors confirms that they are registered, competent and insured to carry out all elements of the works defined in DEVIS. Definition of fix or install means to include all labour, plant, materials and consumables. Compliance means in accordance with all French statutes, standards,norms, in line with the specification and Permits lodged with the Maire. Payment due means that in accordance with schedule of works that at post measure by the employer (Me) the required percentage of works for the DEVIS claimed against has been completed satisfactorilly therefore payment in the agreed percentage due. etc. etc.

Not that I am picky (Far from it) just like to know where I stand even down to who tidies up etc.

Will be speaking to Mr Punchard re electrics as my builder is not an electrician....

Chevaux for courses.....

Thanks all for your helpful comment.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Babbles"]but if we missed anything out or something unexpected arrose it always seemed more expensive than it should of been[/quote]Seems they might have learnt a few tricks from the UK where it often costs more to take something out of a project then it did to include it in the first place [blink]

You seem to have your head screwed on but as an example of how these things can blind side you a work colleague recently decamped to Spain where he was having a house built only to have his previously very reliable and seemingly straight up builder declare himself bankrupt days after taking his latest €40k advance payment !

[Babbles]

ErnieY , on Total France my tail wags and my antnea flash I seem to have had a malfunction here, Houston we have a problem!  A space helmet helps keep my head screwed on who knows where it would float of too, a world of fabrics and paint swatches and kitchen designs not central heating boilers and finding the best mortgage deal[:D]

[jondeau]

Well I can equate with that.........

 

You have to laugh sometimes........I lived for about twenty years in France and never went through the rigmarole that you current day property owners seem to think is normal........

Will you ever understand the french......I doubt it.

[BIG MAC]

Rigamarole?.....

My money doesn't come that easy so when I am spending it I like to understand exactly what on. My own failing entirely for not having mastered the language to be confident in my negotiating prowess in French.

I would rather be able to go down the pub when all is said and done with the guys who have done the work and thank them for a good job well done with few missunderstandings than be locking horns over an issue which could have been ironed out at the outset.

"Set your stall out to succeed" my old man would have said(Bless his soul) I am sure there will be 'Issues' remaining and for them I have a factored contingency.

Once we are all agreed I will facilitate the works make sure there is supplies in, sufficient bog roll and ask a neighbour to drop by and make sure they are ok. make a brew etc.

Hopefully the lasting impression with neighbours is that I have put some business in French hands and have endeavoured to do things right without raining on their parade.