Live and neutral on extension/multisocket boards

[JohnRoss]

Much has been said here about the wiring of sockets in French houses and like others I have found the odd socket with live and neutral reversed. However I had cause to check an extension board yesterday and found that all the sockets on it had live and neutral swapped over. I then checked another board that I have in the house and found the same thing. The switches with neon on these boards in both cases did cut off the live supply at least but on the left hand side and not the right, as you look at the face of the socket.

A third board had two of its three sockets wired correctly and the third, at 180 degrees to the others, with live and neutral reversed. The socket into which the boards were plugged was tested and found to be correct!

I also found a two socket adaptor with one socket correct and the other wrong. I assume that a bus bar construction is used and the manufacturer cannot be bothered to go to the expense of crossing over the connections where the sockets are at 180 degrees to each other.

The extension boards and adaptor were of French manufacture so how do they get away with it or is it thought not to matter?.............JR

[Sunday Driver]

It doesn't matter.  If it did, then they wouldn't get away with it.......[;-)]

 

[Quillan]

Your thinking UK electrics where the majority of domestic supplies use the PME earthing system which basically means neutral and earth are tied together usually at the sub-station. It's not used in France (and as far as I know the rest of Europe) so you can connect sockets anyway round you like. For more on PME earthing please consult the following link.

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/5.6.1.htm

 

[nomoss]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

It doesn't matter.  If it did, then they wouldn't get away with it.......[;-)]

 

[/quote]

It does matter in most countries. The switch on the appliance connected to the socket should be on the live side. If the socket connections are arbitrary, as here, that is not possible.

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="nomoss"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]

It doesn't matter.  If it did, then they wouldn't get away with it.......[;-)]

 

[/quote]

It does matter in most countries. The switch on the appliance connected to the socket should be on the live side. If the socket connections are arbitrary, as here, that is not possible.

[/quote]

If that's the case, how does the appliance know which is the live side of a two pin plug?

Domestic appliances (to the best of my knowledge) are sold with switches that disconnect both sides. They are also double-insulated, so no earth is required.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Clarkkent"][quote user="nomoss"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]

It doesn't matter.  If it did, then they wouldn't get away with it.......[;-)]

 

[/quote]

It does matter in most countries. The switch on the appliance connected to the socket should be on the live side. If the socket connections are arbitrary, as here, that is not possible.

[/quote]

If that's the case, how does the appliance know which is the live side of a two pin plug? Well, actually, the appliance doesn't know. But the person who connects it to the plug should know to connect the brown wire of the appliance to the plug terminal marked as live.

Domestic appliances (to the best of my knowledge) are sold with switches that disconnect both sides. Not often

They are also double-insulated usually only portable electric tools. I have table lights, electric radiators, computers, TV sets, amplifiers, etc etc. without double insulation and with only single pole switches. , so no earth is required.

[/quote]

[Clarkkent]

Thank you for the info on double insulation, Nomoss. I've just looked at a couple of my large appliances and it looks as though you're right, they don't display the double insulation symbol.

I'm still not certain about polarity. If I buy a French extension lead with only two conductors, how do I know which way round I should insert the male end into the wall socket and the female end into the appliance? Since the lead has moulded terminals I cannot see the colour of the shielding. How can I be sure that I insert both terminals in the same way?

As for current delivery, I have a French adaptor with two outlet three-pin sockets which are mounted symmetrically about the midpoint of the body of the adaptor. The adaptor fits vertically into a wall socket. When back is taken off the adaptor, a solid metal bar connects the pins on each side of the adaptor so that the polarity of one socket is the mirror image of the other. This would appear to confirm what others have said.

[Quillan]

[quote user="nomoss"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]

It doesn't matter.  If it did, then they wouldn't get away with it.......[;-)]

 

[/quote]

It does matter in most countries. The switch on the appliance connected to the socket should be on the live side. If the socket connections are arbitrary, as here, that is not possible.

[/quote]

The following European countries use the same standard and that standard allows the sockets to be wired either way round, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Poland, Slovakia, Austria, Bulgaria, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Island, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Romania, Slovenia, Spain and Sweden.

The other countries in Europe (within the EU) that do require the live and neutral to be connected on a specific 'side' of the socket are Cyprus, Ireland, Malta, United Kingdom and Denmark.

As a rule of thumb if the sockets have switches then they have to be wired with live going through the switch on the socket.

(Ref LVD adco 09-03 doc 02)

PS - Your probably wondering how I know this well it's because I am wiring up for my new kitchen and would like to have a corded outlet with switch and neon like you can get in the UK but you can't get them in France because of this neutral/live thing, or so I am told.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Clarkkent"]

I'm still not certain about polarity. If I buy a French extension lead with only two conductors, how do I know which way round I should insert the male end into the wall socket and the female end into the appliance? You shouldn't really use a 2 conductor extension lead for appliances without double insulation. However, even if you use a 3 wire lead, there does not seem to be any french standard for connecting the live and neutral to particular pins, so you still won't know [:)] Since the lead has moulded terminals I cannot see the colour of the shielding. How can I be sure that I insert both terminals in the same way?

As for current delivery, I have a French adaptor with two outlet three-pin sockets which are mounted symmetrically about the midpoint of the body of the adaptor. The adaptor fits vertically into a wall socket. When back is taken off the adaptor, a solid metal bar connects the pins on each side of the adaptor so that the polarity of one socket is the mirror image of the other. This would appear to confirm what others have said. I tried once to connect all my wall sockets in the same way. I then noticed that I have a couple of double wall sockets which have mirror image polarities (Legrand now make some which are not mirror images).

Then I also realised my efforts were defeated if an adapter were to be used. Also not all our appliances even have the live wire connected to the same side of the plug.

I also tried to connect all my light switches in the live line, and connect the live to the centre contact of screw base light sockets, to avoid getting a belt when accidentally touching the base of a lamp bulb when removing it. I think I ran out of time and patience on this exercise.

Anyway, it seems the french equivalent of the IEE is happy with the current situation, even if I'm not.

[/quote]

[JohnRoss]

I would not be happy to have an appliance connected to the mains where the on/off switch on the appliance was connected to the neutral leaving wiring in the appliance live despite the appliance being switched off. This would have safety implications if some component failed in the appliance causing leakage to earth even though the appliance switch was at the off position. Not a problem I agree if double pole appliance switches are used but can we assume that any appliance purchased in France would have these?

My main concern was that the switch on an extension board cut off the live feed regardless of which way the sockets on the board were wired and in the ones that I have this is certainly the case. Consider the situation if a trailing cable from such a board was still live when the computer/printer, TV, sat' box, CD/DVD player, HiFi system or whatever was switched off and was chewed by Fido or Meow Meow during the night, ours did when kittens, the result would be one dead dog/cat or even a fire! The boards I have on checking appear to have a double pole on/off switch with neon so not a problem but again can we assume all extension boards are the same?...............JR

[Chancer]

My property was wired in the 1930's to my knowledge and the majority of the electrics are original, there is a small tableau divisionnaire that was added in the 70's for the bar but the rest remains original and very flaky!

The meter and DD looks to be from the 50's or 60's and naturally my flat and the others I am converting are being done to current regs.

It is/was a bar hotel restaurant with 6 guest rooms a commercial kitchen and bouanderie all fed from 2 glass fuses, the releavnce of this is that they are of course single pole so the polarity of the incoming supply is of the highest importance.

After recieving a few packets myself whilst trying to reinstate the electrical system after I had removed the fuse(s) I realised that the polarity had been reversed for some 80+ years [:-))]

Even when EDF reconnected the property and did some checks up to the meter and disjoncteur de branchement they did not pick it up, they did wish me good luck though and told me that I would need it, many a true word is spoken in jest!

Very good point re changing light bulbs, been there and got the T shirt!

[andyh4]

[quote user="JohnRoss"]I would not be happy to have an appliance connected to the mains where the on/off switch on the appliance was connected to the neutral leaving wiring in the appliance live despite the appliance being switched off. This would have safety implications if some component failed in the appliance causing leakage to earth even though the appliance switch was at the off position. Not a problem I agree if double pole appliance switches are used but can we assume that any appliance purchased in France would have these? My main concern was that the switch on an extension board cut off the live feed regardless of which way the sockets on the board were wired and in the ones that I have this is certainly the case. Consider the situation if a trailing cable from such a board was still live when the computer/printer, TV, sat' box, CD/DVD player, HiFi system or whatever was switched off and was chewed by Fido or Meow Meow during the night, ours did when kittens, the result would be one dead dog/cat or even a fire! The boards I have on checking appear to have a double pole on/off switch with neon so not a problem but again can we assume all extension boards are the same?...............JR[/quote]

 

I think you are worrying too much.  If your distribution board has interruptors then earth leakage will cause the board to trip.

 

Of course if you have an old fused system...........................................

 

One thing does occur to me though.  I like, I guess many others, have an extension lead with a UK socket at the end for plugging in those items where a change of plug is not possible.  Now these could end up with currentrunning the wrong way.  I doubt there is a real problem because again the board protects, but maybe an electrician can confirm