When is a loft a room?

[BIG MAC]

Was just looking at the new building permits. We have three greniers? all floored...all occupied by spiders and the occassional owl.

We did think once upon a time of cleaning and insulating these as dry storage. They do not feature as rooms on our Tax Habitation (fine as they aren't 'inhabited' except by eight legged friends...

What is a good basic definition of 'habitable space' as we dont want to go to effort just to find we have upped our bills needlessly

[idun]

When we asked for permssion for our terrace it was refused as being too big, so we had to reduce the size. That used up all the rest of our m² habitable and when I asked if we could amenage our loft they said no under no circumstances, all used up. My argument that it was already there, had no influence on this.

You need to ask at your local mairie, as it depends where it is. In the campagne it is quite different to towns.

[Clair]

"La surface habitable d'un logement est la surface de plancher construite, après déduction des surfaces occupées par les murs, cloisons, marches et cages d'escaliers, gaines, embrasures de portes et de fenêtres; le volume habitable correspond au total des surfaces habitables ainsi définies multipliées par les hauteurs sous plafond.

Il n'est pas tenu compte de la superficie des combles non aménagés,

caves, sous-sols, remises, garages, terrasses, loggias, balcons,

séchoirs extérieurs au logement, vérandas, volumes vitrés prévus à

l'article R*. 111-10, locaux communs et autres dépendances des

logements, ni des parties de locaux d'une hauteur inférieure à 1,80

mètre." (source)

The surface habitable is calculated as any interior floor space, excluding interior walls, stairwells, door and window frames.

Unconverted attic space, cellars, garages, terraces... and interior spaces lower than 1.80m in height are excluded.

[Chancer]

After having this out at the Hôtel des impôts their definitive ruling was, accessible by stairs, floorboards and a height of  1.8 metres = habitable.

 

[pachapapa]

Il n'est pas tenu compte de la superficie des combles non aménagés, caves, sous-sols, remises, garages, terrasses, loggias, balcons, séchoirs extérieurs au logement, vérandas, volumes vitrés prévus à l'article R*. 111-10, locaux communs et autres dépendances des logements, ni des parties de locaux d'une hauteur inférieure à 1,80 mètre." (source)

With regard to the VL and TF all the above would be included, in respect of the loft then "combles non aménagés" is the relevant term.

And "combles amenagés " will include ALL the internal floor area, right down to the height where the chevrons touch the floor.

When I did my first "combles amenagés" there was a minimum height below which the surface area was NOT included.

But that was in the XX century.[:)]

[JohnRoss]

"They said no under no circumstances, all used up" Does this mean that each property has a maximum habitable area allocated to it? Also do corridors/ bathrooms/shower rooms/utility rooms/vérandas count as habitable space?................................JR

[idun]

Yes, every property has a maximum habitable m². For a house it will depend on the amount of land on which it stands and where it is. Flats will be a bit different.

[pachapapa]

Cadastral area of parcelle,SHON, SHOB, COS, PLU.

The PLU defines the COS.

Area Parcelle X COS = SHON

[pachapapa]

However just for the record I would like to record that my post above and in particular regarding SHOB & SHON is almost purely pedantic as NEXT WEEK on the 1st march 2012 they will be replaced by " surface de plancher".[:D]

The application of the Ordonnance should allow one to squeeze a few square metres more than the SHON, as well as simplifying the calculation.

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000024804731&dateTexte=

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000024804723&dateTexte=

[BIG MAC]

Two of ours are accessible by stairs...sort of already so that can't be it

Unconverted they certainly are however I am unclear if I insulate them and board them (to hold the insulation) but don't wire or plaster them...are they 'unconverted'?

[Clair]

It isn't a living space and you don't use it as a room, but as storage, in the same way you store things in your cellar or your garage.

The fact that it would be insulated doesn't have any bearing.

As long as there is no change of use (i.e. using the space as a living area), it's fine.

[pachapapa]

The dwarf is short of cash and the taxation agencies are being encouraged to generate more tax revenue aided and abetted by local community councillors seeking funds for spendthrift projects by the local community. I have already had one stand up with the local "baskets" on the community of communes mafia when I received for 2011 a "farfelu" taxe foncière assessment.

So a word of warning, there is a tendency for the maire to push through H1 modifications today which yesterday would have attracted a metaphorical nelsonian gaze.  

[Chancer]

Dont get me started on La Communauté de Communes [:@]

I need to go and lie down in a dark place now [:(]