Attic bedrooms/permission.

[vette]

In our main house, which is very large, the main stairs go all the way up to the attic area. This area is one open space and is large enough for at least 4 bedrooms and a bathroom. I am thinking of making 2 large bedrooms and a bathroom. This would involve stud walling. It already has dormer type windows.

Has anyone carried out a conversion such as this and if so, what planning permission is required?

Thanks in advance.

[idun]

We were not allowed to do anything in our big loft, as our plan d'occupation de sol in our village was used up by a terrasse we had built which needed planning permission.

You need to ask at the DDE (or whatever it is called) or the Mairie.

[Chancer]

Yes I have done this and no I didnt ask for any permissions, I didnt fit (admit to fitting) any new Windows, there were no external changes hence by my reasoning no permis de construire or déclaration préalable was needed, in my experience if you go asking and the person doesnt really know or perhaps doesnt understand you the default answer will always be "NON!"  I follow the mantra "ni vu ni connu".

 

That said my conversion and the extra habitable area was declared to les impôts and the Maire and all the adjoints have seen it, I made a point of dragging them in very early to hide things in plain sight.

[suein56]

[quote user="vette"]

Has anyone carried out a conversion such as this and if so, what planning permission is required? [/quote]

Previous neighbours of ours needed to ask permission to do exactly the same as you only because there was no existing access to the loft and no existing windows in place. It was explained to them that they were creating a new habitable space.

Whereas in your case proper access is already in place viz the staircase and there are already existing windows so your space is already habitable.

In contrast if you add a new bathroom then you should inform the tax people as, unfortunately, being clean is taxable in France !

Sue

[andyh4]

Having windows and stairs does not necessarily make a space habitable, and if the attic is considered currently as being outside the habitable space, then turning the area into bedrooms will increase the habitable area and the taxes.

 

Of course you can avoid saying anything, but then when you come to sell or pass on your property your extra bedrooms are going to ring all sorts of alarms with the notaire - whose prime function is to collect property tax.  So this would be right down his street.

[Quillan]

[quote user="andyh4"]

Having windows and stairs does not necessarily make a space habitable, and if the attic is considered currently as being outside the habitable space, then turning the area into bedrooms will increase the habitable area and the taxes.

 

Of course you can avoid saying anything, but then when you come to sell or pass on your property your extra bedrooms are going to ring all sorts of alarms with the notaire - whose prime function is to collect property tax.  So this would be right down his street.

[/quote]

 

I think you are right on this and here are my reasons why. One person I know who lived across the road from us changed the lower part of their house which was a garage the same foot print as their house in to an apartment for their mother. They had to get permission for this. Another couple I know converted their attic which already had windows and partitions in to bedrooms (but no bathroom) and when they came to sell had to pay back tax (I assume Tax D'Habitation etc) and were fined. It didn't stop the sale; the money was simply deducted automatically by the notaire before handing over the balance to them. Needless to say they were a bit shocked that they were ‘found out’.

 

At the end of the day the DDE (directions départementales l'Équipement) as Idun said are the people who will tell you what permissions you require then give you the permission and not the mayor. The reason you go through the mayor is so he knows what’s going on and nothing more, it is just etiquette really.

[suein56]

[quote user="Quillan"] 

I think you are right on this and here are my reasons why. One person I know who lived across the road from us changed the lower part of their house which was a garage the same foot print as their house in to an apartment for their mother. They had to get permission for this.[/quote]

Well of course because of change of use from a garage to habitable space.

[quote user="Quillan"] 

Another couple I know converted their attic which already had windows and partitions in to bedrooms (but no bathroom) and when they came to sell had to pay back tax (I assume Tax D'Habitation etc) and were fined. It didn't stop the sale; the money was simply deducted automatically by the notaire before handing over the balance to them. Needless to say they were a bit shocked that they were ‘found out’.

 At the end of the day the DDE (directions départementales l'Équipement) as Idun said are the people who will tell you what permissions you require then give you the permission and not the mayor. The reason you go through the mayor is so he knows what’s going on and nothing more, it is just etiquette really.

[/quote]

I do agree re the DDE  but, on the other hand, it might depend where you live as when we bought our present house the previous owner had applied to build a new garage and convert the old one (within the structure of the house) into a cellier. This he did but what he didn't admit to was that the cellier became a bedroom with an ensuite shower-room. He also created an access from the house to the new garage - which changes the tax situation too.

When he sold to us he was not fined nor was he asked to pay any back taxes.

The changes were noted by the tax people and we were sent an HI and our taxe d'hab and taxe fonc will increase somewhat.

Sue

[Quillan]

With respect Sue how would you know he was not fined etc. I mean he might not want people to know and it is between him, the notaire and the authorities, it would hardly be in the sale contract just in his Facture.

[andyh4]

First attempt to post this failed, so second attempt.

 

When we were looking for our property we looked at a large number of potential candidates.  Some were described as having attics, some were described as having a bedroom in the roof space.  All had stairs and windows and structurally the only difference I could see was that the "bedrooms" had a (usually large) number of beds scattered around the open space.  Normally second homes, I suspect that in the summer the extended families of sisters and brothers plus their respective partners would claim the real bedrooms, while the accompanying children would be consigned to the communal attic bedroom.

 

The house we finally chose, had an attic (stairs, 3 windows and what today might be described as a velux - but probably predated this term by many decades).  To convert this to a bedroom required permission.  Our habitable space increased as did the taxes.

 

We have also converted a barn to habitable space on the ground floor (increase in taxes) but upstairs is a studio/workshop which is not included in our habitable space even though it had stairs and windows (and still does).  This could be easily converted to extra living space but would require permission.

 

I doubt (in this case perhaps uniquely) that there are regional differences in handling this matter.  An area will be deemed as habitable or non-habitable.  Changing from non-habitable to habitable will require permission (garage to pied a terre; grenier to chambre etc.).   It is only down to how an area is described and it is not inconceivable that over time, two essentially identical properties might end up with one attic having been declared as habitable, while the other has not.

 

So for the OP, whether you will need permission for the bedrooms will depend on how the space was previously described and declared.  The bathroom certainly will require permissions/declaration and I think we all agree on that.

 

Q

I doubt that the seller's wishes would have anything to do with a discussion about extra post dated taxes, I think the notaire would be duty bound to handle this separately and privately and with discretion - but nevertheless firmly.

[suein56]

[quote user="Quillan"]With respect Sue how would you know he was not fined etc. I mean he might not want people to know and it is between him, the notaire and the authorities, it would hardly be in the sale contract just in his Facture.[/quote]

Fair enough though, for various reasons, we have been in close contact with the couple concerned and have a very close friend in common (who told us about the house) so OH and I would probably have been in the loop regarding this.

But, as in all things, I could be wrong.

Having said all that the couple we bought from were French, French, French.

As I am of the I-prefer-to-declare-everything as I am the immigrant here, no one asked me to come here, variety of in-comer I would ask the people who should know ie the DDE in this matter.

Sue

[vette]

Thank you for all of the advice.

Neighbours are not a problem as our place is on our own estate, closest neighbour is half a mile away.

I will have to take a look at the description of the habitable parts from when we purchased. Fortunately we still have all of the adverts and paperwork, etc.

Maybe I'll have a word with the Mairie first as we are on really good terms.

Once again. Thanks.

[Chancer]

Notaires are only responsable for collecting the taxes due on the sale of the property, they have no interest in what has and what hasn't been declared, all they will do is take the current years taxe fonçière bill and apportion it between the seller and buyer.

As for checking that it has been correctly declared and fining people, either someone has a vivid imagination or something was lost in the translation.

The mechanism for re-assessing the valeur locatif is the submission of the formulaire H1, these are sent out systematically when a PDC or DDC is submitted, frequently when a property changes hands and sometimes just when they are having a swoop on an area or if someone is denounced.

The increases are not applied retrospectively but on the next bill, in fact for taxes foncières there is a grace period of one year, they dont fine householders, I speak from experience.

[suein56]

[quote user="Chancer"]The increases are not applied retrospectively but on the next bill, in fact for taxes foncières there is a grace period of one year, they don't fine householders, I speak from experience.[/quote]

The point I was (feebly) trying to make before I was shouted down.

I really should - at my age - have the courage of my convictions.

Sue