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So what is the situation of the owners carrying out work who has an accident? Are they liable to the full cost of treatment?

I can understand your wanting to escape from a factory but I wonder just how ‘adventurous’ you will find driving back and forth to France. I do think you need to view this from all sides – carry out a realistic SWOT analysis and see what that produces.   Looking at some of the aspects of this:   How much capital do you have. You need to buy a van, various start-up costs, such as advertising, building up a client base, which may mean running nearly empty at the start. The other thing that you need are return loads. Haulage and courier companies are always after the return load.   Firstly, the need for a van. Are you going to buy new, one just off of lease hire or an older van?   Whichever route you go, you need to save the depreciation so that you have the funding for another when the time comes to replace it.   If you are borrowing the money for the van you have to make the payments whether you have a load or not.   New – high depreciation Ex Lease – now do not run away with the idea that because it has been leased that it will have been maintained to the highest standard. Not the case. Lease companies spend the least they can to maximise profits Old one – what life has it left in it.   Who is going to maintain it – can you?   If you are not what are you going to do when work is required and the garage says ‘can’t fit it in until the end of next week’. You cannot let customers down so you will have to hire – more expense.   You are just south of Paris and the van engine suddenly dies or you get a horrible noise from it. Will you be able to fix it? Or will you be at the mercy of a French garage and whatever they wish to charge you.   I presume that to make this work financially you will have to make two round trips a weeks of, say 1,200 miles per trip, 2,400 per week, 120,000 miles per year. The van will require several services a year and possibly an engine and running gear after the first year and every 18 months after that. Can you carry out the services and overhauls or is it more money to the garage and hired vehicles whilst off of the road?   You might think that factory life is boring but at the end of the day you go home and do what you want. The runs to France will no doubt become boring, Some of the roads you will be driving twice a week in each direction, you will be caught in traffic jams the black road stretching out before you for mile after mile, the signposts saying ‘Endville 252 km’ etc.   You will also have to contend with blockades of ports and seamen strikes, all adding costs and time delays – and I am sorry, your customers will not be interested in your problems just why were you not here two days ago when you were supposed to.  

Steve You have brought back some memories... I was putting in central heating as a favour for someone I knew. He said 'I'll fit the bracket for the boiler' which he did . I picked up the cast iron boiler, went up the steps with it placed in on the bracket and sort of relaxed and then the fixing bolts pulled out of the wall and all of a sudden I had to take the weight of the boiler again and not fall off of the steps . It is now a golden rule with me that if I am fitting a boiler I fit the bracket. Paul

Just one fly in the ointment with driving the van back - the drivers have to be present when hiring so that the driving licences can be examined.

Thought it would be useful to gen up on rules and regulations for any work on a property in France before we start searching. I have bought 'Renovating & Maintaining Your French Home' by Joe Laredo which seems excellent and does seem to answer some of the questions on this forum. BUT is there a better book? On the subject of electricity and in particular 'lighting', the book states that 'a lighting circuit must have a max of five light sockets'. In one room in our UK house we have 9 230v halogen downlighters so, if it were in France they would have to be on 2 circuits. However, in the bathroom we have 6 12v dimmable halogen downlighters run via one dimmable transformer. As these are 12v are they excluded from the 'five rule' or would they require 2 circuits, 2 switches and 2 transformers? Paul 

I would say yes. The DVLA has been informed that the vehicle has been permanently exported therefore the number plates will no longer be applicable to that vehicle. Therefore, I would think that driving the vehicle with those plates on will constitute driving a vehicle with false plates. In adition, if it is an interesting number then I think the DVLA can sell them for use on another vehicle.

Just to add to the points made by Coral from my experiences with a kit car. The MOT will have the Chassis Number where the reg no normally goes (my tester had to make a phone call to verify he could do this). As it needed examining by the local registration office it is legal to drive to and from the inspection. A few police cars passed and took no notice of there being no number plates. As far the taking it to the MOT test centre, I have seen nothing in the regulation where it states that the centre has to be the nearest etc. Therefore, it would seem that you could come off the ferry at Dover, drive to a prearranged test at a garage in Carlisle and be perfectly legal.

Stephen and Mandy There is a company that runs seminars about relocating to France (two coming up in the near future). At these they have an 'estate agent', financial advisor, currency expert, health expert and someone who will talk about the language and culture. The one that we attended was very useful and there is not the hard sell from the speakers. The cost is very modest and the event ends with splitting into groups for open discussions. We found a very mixed bunch present, including those who had bought and were about to move, others carrying out renovations etc to us, who were on the first rung. I would advise you to go along to one (or both) of these. You should quickly find that from the tax viewpoint that things are very different than in the UK so you will need to reeducate yourselves on this. This forum is also very good - beware you may be taken to task at times and given a rough ride - as you already have been. However, those providing the advice have actually made the move so speak with knowledge and experience. There is also the exhibition at Olympia in September which (I am hoping) will provide information apart from just 'houses for sale'. If nothing else you should be able to browse the various books on different subjects and select those you feel are right for you - I find nothing worse than buying books blind. Best of luck Paul

Ron is correct that the vast majority of surveys carried out in the UK are for the lenders benefit - until recently this was priviledged information and not shown to the purchaser - there will also be on offer far more detailed surveys, which people do take when buying mainly older properties. The lenders survey is normally concerned with providing a valuation, confirming that the property exists and that there a no major visible defects. Some people do use the lenders survey to renegotiate the price where defects are found but the fuller survey can assist to a greater extent. Failing that it does give a better knowledge of any forthcoming problems or, if the report is good, that you should have no problems.

May I firstly say I regret starting this thread.   It started, if you look at my original posting, complaining that an ‘agent’ did not return my email. The reason for this was that previously, an agent had posted complaining that clients did not return his email.   I have learnt about the French system but, to go back to my original posting, it was about one side treating the other side as they would like to be treated.   Ron, well the UK is not comprised of all the same type of housing in a given area – yes it may be true it towns etc but you can certainly get some differences away from the towns – try looking at the Highlands of Scotland. I also appreciate that the population density is far lower etc.   Back to the subject of my original email to an agent. It was one of these sites whereby there was scant info on the properties and it stated ‘click on the email button to receive further details’ which I did for several and out of courtesy stated why I was asking for the details and received nothing in return – no details (which would have just been fuller details that some of the other websites carry) or just a note saying ‘we cannot give you these until you are ready to buy’.   I was also interested Kayjays comments of being shown properties that do not meet the criteria.   'Russethouse' interested in the enlightened agencies and also appreciate that with the current system that they will not want to be cut out of deals.   Anyway, thanks for all your comments etc and I promise I will not post on this matter anymore.  

Alexis, I have no problem with 'getting out of my armchair' - we have a trip booked for October and from that will arrange others early next year. The Internet is a wonderful research medium but one that needs to be used in conjunction with other mediums. As for 'agents' I mean anyone advertising properties for sale. As for the French way, I assume that you include the lack of customer focus - you do it our way and that is it. I suppose at the commision rates they do not have to sell many to make a living, the problem comes when the market is very flat, and from some of the postings the French market seems to be in decline. In the UK a wonderful example of a company who did it their way and did not change is M&S. Look at the problems they are having trying to regain market share. I personally will have little faith in whoever is selling property if they are not cutomer focussed and I am sure that some will be, even if only a small minority. But, as I was trying to say in my postings, it is not just price but location. The right price but located next to the abbattoir, sewage farm (I know there are a lot of septic tanks and not many of these), main highway etc means that if this is what you can get for the price then it will be the wrong location for us, hence th improtance on not just looking at the area but the locations.

Sugarlady, I presume it is a Daewoo - I will be interested in any replies and how you fare - bst of luck

Debra, yes, it is rude, but this was the second time that you have accused me of trying to get agents to act as tour guides – I was just trying to make the point that I am not.   I also appreciate all the help that you and the other contributors to this topic and the other topics that I have posted.   I also appreciate that France is different to the UK.   We obviously have different ideas on wasting time. Your idea of me ‘wasting their time’ is my idea of them having an opportunity to create a good impression on me for when it is actually time to do the deed – a public relations thing showing how ‘customer focussed’ they are.   The best example I have ever had of customer focus was on a visit to the US. I had a little time to kill one evening before heading off to a restaurant for dinner. I wandered around a department store and in the photographic section came across APS cameras. I had not seen them in the UK (they were just being launched). One of the assistants asked if he could help me. I declined, telling him I was only just browsing prior to having dinner. I then asked him what the APS system was. Now, knowing that I was merely browsing to kill time he explained the system thoroughly, and all of this knowing that he was not going to get a sale. Well, he did. The system sounded very good I reasoned that it must catch on plus I was very impressed with his excellent customer focus – even to  non-customer, if you get my drift. Now, if I wanted anything else there I would seek him out.   There is that old saying you have to speculate to accumulate. Whilst I have found out the differences in the relationship between the seller, buyer and agent, which is the reverse to the UK, in the UK the person who they are going to get money, the seller, is courted. I constantly have flyers through the door, ‘do you wish to sell your house’. In addition, they offer no-obligation free valuations. Whilst this is a ‘spratt to catch a mackerel’, some people have these carried out just to know what their house would be valued at with no intention of selling. Here, the agents are participating in a little bit of PR in order that at some time in the future they might be looked upon favourably when it comes time to sell – and I am not one fooled by over-valuations.   As a buyer, when it came to buying the last house, I experienced some very helpful agents and some who were very unhelpful. One agent would not let me view properties as I did not have a buyer for my property. When I found the right property, the owners of which wanted a quick sale, the previous house still did not have a buyer. A chat with my agent as to what I needed to do to shift it resulted in my reducing the price by the amount the agent said and two days after reducing the price, and the agent phoning around potential purchasers I had a buyer. When things seemed that they might go wrong with the purchase of the current house we went around the agents, explained the situation and those that were the most unhelpful could not do enough to show me houses that they had on their books. Now, when it comes to selling this house (and the purchase of a house in France is not dependent upon selling this property) There are just a couple of agents that I will let market it (and that does not include the agents who were selling it for the previous owners) as I know they are customer focussed towards potential purchasers.   Now the way that things come over to me is that agents will not respond because we are not ready to buy yet. Well, there is one way around that as I stated yesterday and that would be to tell agents that we are ready to buy – but as stated previously, I am not prepared to do that – I do believe in fairness.   There was a programme on UK television recently, the 10 worst and the 10 best places to live and they showed you what you would get for the price of an average house (£180k). In some places you could buy a whole block whilst in others you could only buy a very small flat. I know from experience within the UK that there are regions where for x amount of money I can buy a house, and it might seem OK on paper but the area in which those properties are is not acceptable. Therefore, it is a question of ‘location, location, location’. Therefore, under the system whereby we do not know the type of location of properties within our price range when we do go to buy, an agent is going to spend time to take us to visit properties which, as stated, on paper sound fine yet when we actually see them if they are not in an acceptable location then it will be back to the drawing board. The result, the agent will have wasted their time and we will be back to finding another suitable area.   Finally, Kayjay thanks for your experience. I can see some people turning to bloody mindedness – if you waste my time I will waste your time. I wonder if the French agents try to cut the UK agents out therefore they want you over there before any form of details is forthcoming. I think the other unforgivable thing is showing you properties that do not meet your criteria – presume they do not have anything that meets it but think that they can sucker you into buying something. Today, I have been speaking to a colleague who has bought in France who says her agent as marvellous. Brings to mind that Basil Fawlty line ‘a satisfied customer – we will have him stuffed’.   Also is there an equivalent of the UKs ‘www.upmystreet.co.uk’ where you can find various information about specific areas (postcode based) that details amongst other things crime rates?   Sorry that this has been a long reply.

DEBRA - PERHAPS I NEED TO SHOUT - I AM NOT LOOKING FOR A TOUR GUIDE I AM BEING UPFRONT - WE ARE JUST RESEARCHING AND LOOKING FOR SOME DETAILS. My views are that it will be the agent who in future who would like me to buy a house via their company (no sales no business!). From a potential purchasers point of view, and the potential purchase will be next year, the agent can create either a good impression or a bad one. For me, the agent in question has created a bad one. Any reply would be preferable to no reply. Debra, I wonder how you conduct research when buying something. From your attitude you just do not do any - by the time we are ready to buy we want to know the area we wish to buy in - and that will include are the properties affordable. I anticipate that we will make sveral trips to establish this. I take note of the fact that the descriptions can be a major work of fiction. Now, if I had been devious, I would have told the agent that we are ready to buy so please show us properties and then fobbed them off with comments such as 'not exactly what we are looking for'. I am not and have therefore just asked for email details (DEBRA THAT MEANS NO PERSON TAKING US AROUND). Creusois, you, as an agent seem to have a feel for customer relations. Yes, it is very impolite when clients do not respond to emails and it must be very frustrating, (my wife works in the service industry and regales me with stories of how rude people have been that day) which is why I have tried to be fair, upfront and not waste peoples time NOR ASK THEM TO BE A TOUR GUIDE.    

Coco, I personally feel that you might enhance your business by having an 'adults only' rule. We are caravanners and, at least within the UK, there are a number of sites that are adult only, including a few sites of the largest club. There are moans on the caravan forums along the lines of 'why can't I take my children there'. We try to book this type of site, or the ones with no children facilities so that we avoid the type you describe. There are some children who are polite and do as they are told. However, it would seem the majority are not. Yesterday we visited my sister and brother-in-law who have a caravan permanently sited. There was a touring caravan full of kids yelling and screaming and the mother was yelling and sceaming at them - the result, a load of noise and nothing else. If we were looking for accommodation, came across yours and it said 'adults only' we would book - go for it.

Cannot see a reference to them, but what is the status of Dobermanns? Normally, people are frightened of this breed of dog which, unless it has trained to be aggressive is extremely friendly and affectionate. Thanks  

Debra, as the original poster you have demonstrated that descriptions can be works of fiction - when it comes to the time to buy each time I shall look the agent in the eyes and tell them that if they waste my time I will waste their time greatly so the whole relationship shall have to be one of trust and most of all honesty. As to the property you describe I do not think I would have bothered to have toured around it, nor have sought out the lake but to have had very sharp words with the agent as soon as I saw that he/she was wasting my time. Perhaps we need to take along aportable lie-detector and strap the agent to it when enquiring about properties. I shall just hope that it is an exception to the rule but will be very wary. Jon, we will bear your comments about lack of response in mind - wonder if the cab company in France is affiliated to our local UK one? Seems like keeping ones blood pressure down is hard at times. MWJ your story about sixth sense reminded me of the story of the person in jeans who, in the early 60s, went into a Rolls Royce dealer in London and was told to 'go away'. A little while later he parked outside the dealership in a new Rolls Royce and informed them he had bought one elsewhere. From then on the dealership opened its mind about potential buyers - wonder if it is true.  

Phew - did not realise that you needed to get out ones chemistry set each time one went. Very interesting and, Motorhead, very informative. Going back to item 2 of your original reply, could that be taken as - if someone is on antibiotics then everyone who is not needs to go as often as possible - are there any good Indian restaurants in France?

Debra – sorry about my reaction to your experience based advice. My reason for also wishing to view houses from the outside in areas is really for the price difference that can exist between areas in the UK and I presumed it would translate to France.   Agree on the descriptions. Some are extremely full whilst others very scant. Some of the descriptions seem to provide enough information to be able to either pinpoint their location or very near to their location. Therefore, our thoughts had been to plan our trip going by some of the properties so that we could judge the overall area and specific areas. I live in Surrey and overall Surrey is nice but there are parts that would be a no.   I will heed your warnings about the idyllic looking property being a total mess inside. Although, at the right price it does mean that the renovated property is as you want it but, from experience, the ‘client’ (ones loved one) usually changes the specification and the costs go up and up.   I have also spotted that some have a combined living room, dining room and kitchen with the bath on the ground floor, two bedrooms on the first and an attic ripe for conversion.   So taking everyones advice into account I think our best plan will be to visit the various areas, specifically visit within those the area in which some of the houses are and arrive at a chosen area.   We realise that we may need to make several trip when we decide to buy and perhaps use a search agent once everything is firm.   Also that the house finally purchased may not be where we originally thought, be nothing like what we originally thought we wanted.   Many thanks

Congratulations missyetbut. We have English friends who moved to Wales last year, and live in a strong Welsh speaking area in the south. We were staying with them at the weekend and they received the prospectus for the local adult education classes which contained a vast number of courses on the Welsh language. To my question 'are you going to enrol' the emphatic answer was 'no'. I suppose the typical English reaction - if they want to speak to me they will have to in English. Whilst those who speak Welsh do also speak English they will not have problems, what a sham that they have are not following your example and trying to integrate more.

Andy I have not withdrawn it (and I am a he - Paul) but when I posted it I received a message that there was a server error and now my original posting always goes to the end. My reason for avoiding an area with an ex-pat community is the ame as yours - to make us integrate with the natives. Paul  

Debra - perhaps we all have our own methods of choosing an area. Initially, it is not just the area for us but also the type of property. I am not asking anyone to spend a day with me. BUT rather than just look at the area, what do the properties look like that we can afford. As for paying someone to do this for me, I would not find that acceptable, not because of the payment but because I need to actually see it rather than lay down some specification of what I want.   I must take issue with your statement ‘no way can you decide from the road that properties are in any way acceptable’. If it does not look right from the outside then it is not acceptable – for us. An area might be just the one but if the properties that we can afford are situated in unacceptable locations then the area is not right. It provides another little piece in the decision jigsaw.   I can assure you that I have used this method in the past within the UK and it works for me.   I agree that house descriptions can sometimes have wonderful descriptions applied to them and that agents are superb photographers but failing all else, it does provide some information and, if you look through reversed rose-tinted spectacles then it does become clearer.   My methodology in all of this on a step-by-step basis has been:   1. Can we afford the houses in France 2. Can we afford the houses in areas that we think might be suitable 3. Can we earn enough from investments to enable early retirement 4. Find the area we like that contains properties we like 5. Then start the detailed looking.   If item 4 fails then we will be back to the UK – we have done the research – including areas containing the type of properties we want and how those properties are situated, and this has enabled the elimination of a large number of areas.   Thanks Will and Ron for you comments, most useful and on one particular site at the top of each property they have emblazoned in red ‘this property is still for sale’ - your comments explains that and also that the seller has no real obligation Just to add - I never try to waste peoples time, I would and do not take ask to see things, be it a property, car etc unless there is an intention to buy and the item might fit the bill. That is why I was upfront with the agent about what I wanted to do - I could have said 'I am ready to buy and would like to see these houses' but that would be most unfair on the agent. AND when it comes to keeping appointments then I always plan to arrive early as I hate people being late and if something should go wrong letting the other person know aap.

Is it a little acaedemic whether a spare bulb kit is recommended or compulsory - perhaps best to carry one even if it is not recommended or compulsory.

A while back thee was an agent complaining about potential purchasers who make appointments but fail to turn up. We are in the process of arranging a trip to tour areas and merely look at properties from the road to arrive at a chosen area that is acceptable and where properties seem acceptable. Some agents include a great deal of information about their properties on their websites whilst others include scant information and you have to email for further information. Having come across a site for one of the 'scant info' merchants I emailed or some details and included why I wanted it. The result - nothing. From reading this forum times are bad for agents - when it comes to going to France with the Euros in our pockets it will be time to do our best to avoid the agents who cannot be bothered to create a good impression right from the start - and that includes failing to have detailed information on their websites and also failing to reply to enquiries.

An interesting question and one in which no details are given, or perhaps need to be given. I work for the health service and yesterday I went around some of our geriatric wards - a very sobering thing to do. Some of the people on them are just existing - their quality of life is virtually zero and for their family visiting it must be heartbreaking. My thoughts as I came away - if I ever get close to that then I want out. For those of you who say 'counselling' how do you tell someone who is approaching a vegative state, where they ae incontinent and do not know what is going on around them that life aint so bad and you should carry on 'enjoying' life, assuming they can understand you. Last year we had to take our dog to the vets and the kindest thing was to have him put to sleep. If we had allowed him to continue to suffer then we would be accused of cruelty. If it was a person then their life would have been kept going as long as possible, even after the painkilling drugs had lost their effect - what is the kindest?