chessfou

As far as City & Guilds are concerned, you can find (at least) their UK equivalents here: http://www.cityandguilds.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-0AC0478D-C3850CC0/cgonline/hs.xsl/2329.html That should make it much easier to find a French equivalent. The C&G equivalency PDF should be much the same as this web page: http://www.learnonline.nhs.uk/Trust+Training/City+Teaching+PCT/KSF+Information/Qualification+Equivalents.htm

SD, I think perhaps I will demonstrate my integration by dealing with this in the French manner ... [;-)]

My own opinion is that the French tax regs are quite clear in that CSG is payable (barring E106, E121, PHI, etc) but because it is invariably deducted at source here, foreigners generally get away without paying it because the tax system "black box" seems to lack the relevant inputs to enable collection (since the black box expects that it "will" have been deducted at source). Leaving aside questions about what exactly is a "pension" and what are "rentes viagères à titre onéreux." I have no other way of reconciling the tax form notes (which I am well aware of and to which SD keeps referring) and the tax law (to which I have been referring). It would be really, really useful to hear from Bill Blevins (or anyone who has been to Blevins Franks for advice, or any other accountants). I may also try asking a (French) poster on another forum who I think may be an "expert comptable."

Ron, [quote] So in your own case chessfou, have you been paying CSG and prelev on your total income?[/quote] No, not yet, still on E106, therefore not "à la charge, à quelque titre que ce soit, d'un régime obligataire français d'assurance maladie." That will change as soon the E106 expires in January, so that would be the 2009 tax return (for 2008). BJSLIV, The relevant phrase is that which I quoted above from the actual tax regs as on www.impots.gouv.fr (click on "documentation" button, next page click on "Accédez à la documentation fiscale" near end of first paragraph, opens new window - then search "contribution" to bring up the list you need and which you won't find from searching "contribution" on the front pages of the impots site. Now, under "CSG" click on "124ets" for chapter and verse), so: (1) those "a la charge" pay CSG on UK pension* income (includes those on CMU-B); (2) those not "a la charge" do not (includes all on E-forms and PHI). (* I haven't checked for govt. pensions exception or odd exceptions like retired diplomats)

IMHO, on the basis of the regs quoted, "no" - PHI means neither CSG nor CRDS. But employment, self-employment or continued CMU  means both CSG & CRDS payable (on UK pensions as well as earnings).

OK, here's a start (124): Précis de Fiscalité : PF/LI/1°P/T3/C6 (updated 1 Sep 2007): A. CONTRIBUTION SOCIALE GÉNÉRALISÉE (CSG) ... ... 1241. Contribution sociale sur les revenus d'activité et les revenus de remplacement (Code de la sécurité sociale, art. L. 136-1, L. 136-2, L. 136-3, L. 136-4, L. 136-5 et L. 136-8 ; Loi de financement de la sécurité sociale, art. 10, 11 et 20). a. Sont assujettis : • les personnes physiques qui sont à la fois considérées comme domiciliées en France pour l'établissement de l'impôt sur le revenu et à la charge, à quelque titre que ce soit, d'un régime obligataire français d'assurance maladie ; [NB: "revenus de remplacement"  generally mean pensions and such-like] However, I can see no sign of a 7.1% figure. Right now, though, my head hurts, so I shall go and open the bottle of Chablis which is to accompany tonight's baked pasta with smoked salmon.

SD, The trouble is that the text you have dug up refers only to the CRDS. The more important bit is the CSG. I will have a rummage around www.impots.gouv.fr but don't you think it would be surprising if both Blevins and whoever wrote the French-Property guide had got this so outstandingly (and identically) wrong?

Bill Blevins also agrees on the 7.1% (x95%) levy on pensions (without E-form): http://www.livingfrance.com/Editorial.aspx?brand=LVFOnline&category=LVFAdvice%20-%20tax&story=SPED03+Aug+2007+09%3a41%3a25%3a587&page=2741

OK, now I am confused! First there is the confusion between social contributions of 7.1%, 8% and 11%.      CSG     CRDS     PS 1   6.6%     0.5%      0        Total 7.1%. UK pensions 7.1% (on 95% of gross); source: 7.4 & 7.6 of below quoted 2   7.5%     0.5%      0        Total 8%. employment/self employment 8% (on 100%?); source: "Profession Libérale" 6e ed, Jan 2007. 3   8.2%     0.5%      2.3%  Total 11% investments, rental, capital gains; source: 7.6 of below quoted ref. Then there is the confusion over whether they are to be paid (or not) by those without an E-form. Here follows a quote from: http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/taxation/social-security [my bold, highlighting the "inactive" bit] [quote] 7.4. 'Retired' Persons If you become resident in France, and in receipt of a pension, the rules that apply in relation to social security contributions will depend on whether or not you have reached the official age of retirement. i. Retired Persons Retired expats from within the EU reaching the official age of retirement are not liable for social security contributions, or the social welfare levy, on their state pension, government service, or private pension. Neither will you pay health contributions, as you will be covered through E121 arrangements. ii. Under Age of Retirement If you are under the official age of retirement, and living on a government service or private pension, then you will pay the social welfare levy on 95% of your gross income, at the rate of 7.1%. [/quote] My opinion remains that they are payable unless you have an E-form (or, maybe, PHI). Ron, SD, If you are still certain that you are correct (that they are not payable), please can you point to any source(s).

Here you go, quick search reveals SD's post: [quote] Payments towards the 'social fund shortfall' etc, are called the contributions sociales (or 'social charge').  They normally amount to 11% of all earned and unearned income with no lower threshold, ie from the first euro. The 8% you mention is the contribution made towards state heathcare cover (CMU).  It's actually 8% of your total taxable income less allowances, over an approx 8,000€ threshold. You are exempt from the 11% social charge on your UK earned income and pensions if you are not 'a la charge' of the French state heathcare insurance system, ie if you have an E106 or E121 form and therefore you don't pay the 8% CMU contribution.  If you are paying the 8% CMU contribution, then the 11% social charge applies to your UK earnings and pension. If you are currently paying the 8% CMU contribution, but losing this entitlement, then your UK earnings and pension will in future be exempt from the 11% social charge. All unearned investment income attracts the 11% social charge regardless.[/quote] http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/1064067/ShowPost.aspx . Well, that's me and SD confused then, albeit we are "equally" confused.

No, no confusion on my part (E&OE) as far as I know. If you have an E106, you are not in charge of French system and so you don't pay 11% social charges on UK pensions. If you don't have an E106 and you are in charge of French system (i.e. CMU-B or self-employed - in my example - or, indeed, employed) then UK pensions are subject to the 11% social charge. If you don't have an E106 and you are not in charge of French system (PHI) then the 11% social charge should not apply to UK pensions (as is the case when you move on to an E121).

caramac, It does depend (a bit) on what you would be registering as (in my case "Prof.Lib."). However, you can play around with the URSSAF calculator to get an idea of cotisations: http://www.urssaf.fr/profil/independants/services/calculer/acces_direct_01.html If your expected turnover is low, make sure you check for the average over 3 years (you will see that your "overpaid" cotisations start to be repaid, although as from Jan next year it should, in general, be possible to pay only what is due on your expected turnover rather than the present "forfaitaire" system, thus avoiding any overpayment in the first place and that may be a great deal less than the calculator shows). You can also use the following (very, very approximate) figures to calculate the cotisations due: 13% allocation familiale, CSG, CRDS; 13% assurance maladie; 10% retraite, invalidité, décès === 35-36% but because of the complex calculations, try using 30% as an overall figure. cooperlola, Yes, of course, 11% social charges applied to all UK pension income under the CMU-B and self-employed calculations (not applicable, of course, to the PHI route, since then one would not be a charge on Sécu). Deimos, Of course, such figures depend upon all sorts of differences (and have nothing whatever to do with MEPs & lobbying) but I thought it would be enlightening to see some "real" figures (well, almost real since I have hidden them behind percentages). How else can anyone go about making a sensible decision on what to do? Especially those of us who have to do something in the next 4-5 weeks (our E106s run out at the beginning of January and I certainly wouldn't want to be trying to sort all the paperwork in the run-up to Christmas (whether it be the "self-employed," PHI or chuck in the towel and emigrate option - I don't accept the "do nothing" option as a sensible one).

I have done a fairly thorough breakdown of our comparative costs under the three different schemes. All calculations are for two people (my wife and I, late 50s).  The most difficult of the three to calculate was the PHI, not least because  many (eg April) won't even quote if you have an existing condition. It looks like AMI might take those with existing conditions, so I have assumed that they would take us but I have bumped up their middle (confort) tarif by the current annual cost of our medications. The figures are expressed as % of what we were expecting to pay p.a. once our E106 runs out in January - 8% of income (CMU-B) + 11% social charges + mutuelle top-up. That lot being "100%". Surprisingly, both the alternatives are cheaper; most surprisingly the self-employment route. Self-employment cost is based on all cotisations + 11% social charges + mutuelle top-up (and, of course, the cotisations include other things as well, not least a potential pittance of a pension but every little helps). Admittedly, "active" income will be small in comparison with our pension incomes and someone with a much larger income from self-employment would find that route by far the most expensive of the three. CMU-B: 100% self-employment: 90% PHI: 91% So, for us at least, not a huge difference in cost but an apparent "no brainer" (as they say)  when it comes to a choice.

Sésame! She's still there (at least tonight - now on TF1).

Not aware of any "specials" (a la Ireland). If you're an author (normal book publishing contracts; unlikely to apply to any magazine stuff and definitely not newspaper stuff) then have a look at AGESSA: http://www.agessa.org/getpage.asp?RUB_CODE=1&NUM=0&RUBCODEPREC=1 for other srtistic stuff, look at the Maison des Artistes: http://www.lamaisondesartistes.fr/

[quote]just west of St Affrique near Le Truel in the South Aveyron (12)[/quote] Then you're down the right end of the département for the many musical offerings at the splendid Abbaye de Sylvanes: http://www.sylvanes.com/index.html

[quote]An expatriate (in abbreviated form, expat) is a person temporarily or permanently residing in a country and culture other than that of the person's upbringing or legal residence.[Panda][/quote] The definition seems a little confused - how do you permanently reside in a country other than that of your legal residence?  But if we accept the oddity, we find that many "ex-pats" are legally resident here in France (or elsewhere) and so, like us, are emigrants (from UK) and immigrants (here). Though I note (from further down the Wikipedia ex-patriate" reference): The difference between an expatriate and an immigrant is that immigrants (for the most part) commit themselves to becoming a part of their country of residence, whereas expatriates are usually only temporarily placed in the host country and most of the time plan on returning to their home country, so they never adopt the culture in the host country - though some may end up never actually returning, with the distinction then becoming more a matter of their own viewpoint.

Wot, again? Doesn't everyone know by now that if you have a non-governmental pension, taxable in France, you do not put anything in box TL if you have an E106 or E121. However, I have not seen anywhere an indication of what should be done by those who have an E106 end mid-year or an E121 commence mid-year. My guess is that the relevant portion of the pension (for the period not covered by an E-form) should be entered in box TL*. Anyone (SD?, well it is Sunday) know for sure? Another point in connection with this. What is the position of someone who holds an E106 and then (while the E106 is still in force) enters a French "régime" (by virtue of starting an "entreprise individuelle"). Does the French régime take precedence over the E106? Would that again be a pro-rata affair? *Although in our case (E106 running out 5th/8th Jan) any saving would be rather tiny.

Ron, It may be that she (Michèle Poulidor*) was referring to Haute-Vienne (rather than Dordogne) but my source said "Dordogne" when he told me about it. Just have to wait and see whether he can find the paper version in the archive. *I think she is closely related (daughter?) to Raymond Poulidor (the famous cyclist: Anquetil-Merckx-Poulidor).

5-element, Interesting find (I don't hear a lot of rap on France Musique or Radio Classique [:)]) although "intégration ou colonisation" is the title of the forum thread rather than from Diam's oeuvre; the title of the song is Ma France A Moi (is this globalisation at work? I thought it should be Ma France à moi) and the words, for what they're worth, from the album "Dans Ma Bulle" (Dans ma bulle), are here: http://musique.ados.fr/Diam-s/Ma-France-A-Moi-t42452.html

I've got a bit more information about the "colonisation ou integration" speech; it was at a colloquium in Rodez. The maire concerned is Michele Poulidor of Dompierre-les-eglises, Haute Vienne (87). The text is not available in the on-line archive but my friend at the CCI is going to have a look through the paper archives.

Could well be a lot more, especially if the following quote is based on fact: Dans la Haute-Vienne, quarante nouvelles demandes de dossiers sont chaque semaine introduites par des sujets de Sa Gracieuse Majesté auprès de la caisse d'Assurance maladie ... Fralon, José-Alain Au secours, les Anglais nous envahissent! Paris, 2006 (p.13)

I'll try to remember to ask next time I see him. Meanwhile, yesterday, I came across a fun radio broadcast from September: The Invaders or Les anglais ne sont pas des arabes comme les autres. An intrepid bilingual Frenchman interviews several Englishmen in Dordogne(shire). One woman (in the background) can be heard yelling "payback" (referring to the purchase of Aquitaine in order to replace the land lost during the Hundred Years War). Plenty to cringe about but some interesting conclusions on what makes an "immigrant" and why the "expats" could be right that they're not immigrants. It's about 45 mins long: http://www.la-bas.org/article.php3?id_article=1239

That was the title of a speech, given by a French maire (from somewhere in Dordogne), one point of which was mentioned to me yesterday by one of the senior people at our local Chamber of Commerce. The point mentioned was that (in the particular Dordogne commune) for each local organization there was a "mirror" English language organization (neither having contact with the other), even a Garden Party Committee (or whatever) mirroring le Comité des fêtes. Obviously not integration, therefore ... Our own commune has about 1% Britanniques resident and also two Comités des fêtes but that's different - one is for "Le Bourg" (down in the valley, with a Salle des fêtes attached to the mairie) and the other (on which my wife serves) for those of us up on the hill (with the nicer Salle des fêtes).

Note that cotisations are based on forfaitaire figures (ca. €6k+ year one and ca €8-9k year two). If you are being unfairly hit, you can ask (almost insist) that your actual figures are used. As for unreasonable proportion of gross; well, taxes (at least income and council) are rather low and the money has to come from somewhere to pay for the health service, fantastic infrastructure and other good benefits (note that a chunk of the cotisations goes towards your pension).