The Riff-Raff Element

I'm not going to bore you with our CV, and I really can't be bothered with a 'tis -'tisn't scene with anyone, so I shall confine my comments to the following with no explanation: - We have never regreted our move here four years ago and have significantly improved our quality of life at the expense of our income. We are happy with the trade; - It is a serious mistake to underestimate the importance of language when moving to a new country; - Personally, I would strongly advise against moving to France with school age children: ours were very young when we arrived and bearly noticed the change of scene. They have few if any memories of living anywhere else. Older children frequently have a miserable time of it.

[quote user="KathyC"][quote user="Jon"]Looks like I may have to make more than one trip...I've heard rumour of a passable curry house (run by native of Birmingham, I understand, which as everyone knows is the true home of British Curry) in Niort  - does anyone know anything about this? [/quote] I wouldn't tell them that in Manchester; Birmingham may be the UK's balti capital but curry - never! [/quote] I walk a fine line vis-à-vis curry: my Dear Wife is from Bradford, one Mother Outlaw lives in Dewsbury and the other in Manchester. Birmingham is broadly neutral gound. Actually, and don't tell them I said this, I think the best curries come from around the Brick Lane area of East London but if I ever mentioned this when Up North it would probably be discounted on grounds of my so-called Metropolitan bias. I happen to agree that Manchester produces curries of deep excellence (what's the name of that one street where there are about 850 restos?), but I think it best to steer the middle course and make non-commital but appreciative noises when we go out.

[quote user="Will"]In practical terms, you can put most liquids down there, as with all thing, in moderation. If you can find something that works, is easily available, and septic tank friendly, so much the better, but other products will not matter too much, a the sort of quantities you use compared with the capacity of the septic tank means that they will be very much diluted. If you are worried, then just put an extra sachet of Eparcyl or Septics down the loo. In rural areas just about everywhere uses either a septic tank or a communal drainage system that works on much the same principle, so products on general sale will not be too harmful. Obviously you don't put a 5 litre can of bleach or large quantities of paint stripper into a septic tank, but on the other hand you don't need to worry excessively.[/quote] Though one product to be avoided at all costs is hydrochloric acid, much used for limescale removal in mains drainage systems and easily available from bricos & supermarkets. This is a very strong acid (in the chemical sense) and even small amounts (try half a litre in a 3000l tank...)will lower the pH of a septic tank to levels where the bugs simply will not function. Time alone will not be a very effective cure for this kind of death and rehabilitation probably would involve addition of alkalis to correct the pH to more normal levels. However badly stained with tartar the thunderbox might be, don't be tempted.

Looks like I may have to make more than one trip...I've heard rumour of a passable curry house (run by native of Birmingham, I understand, which as everyone knows is the true home of British Curry) in Niort  - does anyone know anything about this?

Out of all the online stuff I reckon France2's offering is the best in terms of content and depth. We've never had anyone give us a free copy of anything English language published in France (but our name doesn't leap out of the 'phone book as being English, which may have something to do with it), but our French teacher is given French News by another client (she also teaches English to French types) and I have to say it really is fairly awful. I'm sure newspapers have gone downhill since I were a lad: the odd copy of the Times, Independent or whatever that our guests leave behind (and which we value as firelighters, when we can get them to actually burn - something has changed in the manufacturing process, I am sure) reads like a student rag.

[quote user="The-Lovely-Wendy"] So i searched the web and phoned Tescos, they assure me that there own bleach, is safe. Also all Lever products are safe for the fosse also. [/quote]  Bleach can be used in moderation, but safe in large quantities it is not. I'm not sure I'd trust some pimply youth on a UK supermarket helpline to advise me on the suitability of any product for a fosse, and if their bleach does not kill the bacteria in a septic tank then I'd wonder if it's antiseptic properties were good for anything at all... OK, all that happens when a fosse is killed is a rather nasty smell: they will regenerate quite quickly, but it is still preferable to use products from French suppliers labelled "sans danger pour fosses septiques" rather than guessing and having to then move into the garden for a week until normal service is resumed.

From Le Figaro online. Not particularly easy (it's aimed at native speakers to test how bad their grammer is....) but the explanations, although in French, are clear. Figaro Grammer

Gentlemen, what a wonderful and heart warming example of people doing something for each other merely because they can. I am mired in 'flu for the first time in 25 years and bored out of my mind, but my spirits are lifted! [:)]

I assume that whoever was supposed to be funding Euroferries got cold feet when they saw the loop in which Speedferries seem to be stuck. IE low price equals no money for investment / expansion. Or you wait until the competition run up the white flag and then jack prices up to a level consistent with actually running a business. One to watch I think.

La Rousille sounds like just the thing! I love veal sweetbreads... We may go next week if we can fit it in, otherwise it will after the February school holiday: I don't mind taking the baby, but the girls probably wouldn't sit still for six courses and this is definately a self-indulgence session.

Such caretakers exist, but there seems to be fewer and fewer of them. The problem is that the turnaround business is very restricted: the budding entrepreneur might be able to do two or three properties on a Saturday (which is almost inevitably the prefered day), and with the number of properties for rental rising all the time around here, willing hands for this kind of seasonal work are in short supply. You might try a small ad in the supermarket: the cheque d'emploi system is a good way of your making sure all is kept nice and above board. I'm sure that you would not consider a cash arrangement, but if anyone were then it should be noted that the local fuzz appearantly did some sweeps in some of the more popular resorts last summer...great was the wailing and gnashing of teeth. No-one got prosecuted, though wrists were firmly slapped and dire warnings were issued to employers & employed alike. Good luck with your hunt.

Does anyone know of a nice restaurant in or very close to Niort? It appears I am going to have to open my wallet and give the moths some fresh air and I would prefer to do it somewhere where the food is nice. Suggestions gratefully received!

Does this mean that they are going to be using hovercraft or will they be fitting wheels to their craft and driving up on to the apron. We should be told! What I REALLY want is someone to start competing with BF on the St Malo route (and I don't mean Condor - I have never yet found them cheaper than BF on a like-for-like basis but I check every time out of sheer bloody mindedness). I can't face the drive to Calais / Boulogne with three children in the car and a lack of cabins on LD lines makes them a poor alternative. Even on midweek depth of winter crossings I have not seen the St Malo crossing anything other than pretty damned full, so surely extra capacity would make sense?

As Val says - it will depend upon the attitude of the Dept you are in, and things can change. You will have to check locally, I'm afraid.

[quote user="hastobe"][quote user="You can call me Betty"][quote user="Jon"] Austalia (in population terms) is a small nation surrounded by much larger ones. France is not. Her only larger neighbour is Germany. The Netherlands, Scandinavia are also small nations and they consequently have become very adept at speaking the language of larger neighbours - it makes good business sense after all. [/quote] I assume that your reference to Australia as a "big" nation in linguistic terms refers to the fact that Australians speak English? I can't tot up the numbers of French speakers in the world, but I don't think it leaves France as a linguistic "also ran" by any standards. [/quote] Exactly - and that is what Jon was implying when he made the comparison... [/quote] No I wasn't. You infered something that I can't make head nor tail of. The point was clear: Australia's regional neighbours - such as China, Japan, the Phillipines, etc have very large populations for whom the first language is not English (though I think it might be an official language in the Phillipines). Instead they speak Japanese, Mandarin, etc. Australia (an NZ) have tiny populations in comparision, so it is hardly surprising that these English speaking nations should take on the mantle of competent linguists, a behaviour that is not necessarily reflected in the dominant language nations in Europe (France, the UK, Germany, Spain, Italy) outside of those few professions that actually need to speak other languages. That's it. Andy - I agree with you: the idea, widely held, that the Dutch can universally speak excellent English is utterly false. I had to learn Dutch to  appreciate just to what extent my collagues were winging it. The same, according to two of the few Englishmen I have ever met who can speak Nordic / Scandinavian languages is true in those parts of the world too. A lot of people try to speak English and quite a few of those can sound pretty good, but only a small number ever become truly competent. An easy language it is not.

Wen - you equated a reluctance to speak English with racism, which it isn't. It is not reasonable to expect any health professional to conduct their trade in any language in which they are not totally proficient. Aside from the liability issue I am sure that they would be ethically unhappy about possible misunderstanding. Frankly, if people need a translator they should engage one. In the tourist trade one finds many French capable of speaking English and very happy to do so, but then the consequences of Getting it Wrong are not quite as grave. Austalia (in population terms) is a small nation surrounded by much larger ones. France is not. Her only larger neighbour is Germany. The Netherlands, Scandinavia are also small nations and they consequently have become very adept at speaking the language of larger neighbours - it makes good business sense after all.

[quote user="Lister"]I suppose what i wanted to know is if it is a turnover limit of 27,000 euros or a profit limit of 27,000. Thanks for your help [/quote] Turnover, I'm afraid.

Hi Lister, As m'learned friends above have already said, it does depend on the type of business one is in. The higher limit is for enterprise perceived to be high cost - sales of goods and provison of accomodation (which is why may gite owners use this business model). The lower is for low cost business, such as -oh I dont know - a translation service. A chmbre de commerce would be able to advise which model if either would be appropriate.

I have met an English cabinet maker here in the Vendée - friend of a friend - who's been in business for a couple of years now. As I recall he registered through the chambre de metiers but was spared the five day course because his profession required no actual formal qualification in France unlike - say - a plumber.  I should mention that the Vendée takes a more relaxed approached to this sort of thing in an attempt to be more business friendly (in this weeks edition of L'Express there is reference to the "Vendéen economic miracle" which is laying it on a bit think in my view, but that's journos for you), so you'd need to sound out local attitudes, but there certainly does seem to be a good market for bespoke furniture. His order book was very healthy for the coming months.

[quote user="Dick Smith"]Jon - nonsense! Capitals make as much sense as ever (And You Know It!). [/quote] I was just joshing! I do very much prefer reading things that are properly punctuated and laid out. Not, I would hasten to add, from some sense of snobbery; merely because it makes things easier to understand. I make plenty of mistakes, but I do make an effort. MB I reckon has a mean right hook, but a glass jaw. In a straight fight I think I'd be betting on JC.

[quote user="Dick Smith"]Don't take the mickey. I am telling you what I think - what I think of your pal the judge is something else. And yes, it is better. [/quote] Being a linguistic realist for a moment, surely the loss of proper capitalisation is just an evolution of our marvellous mother tongue? Personally I strive to use them where I can otherwise the shift key on this keyboard would feel underemployed, but I'm sure it's just one of my pointless affectations along with trying to avoid ending a sentence with a preposition... I think Chirac avoided kissing Mrs Beckett's hand because he thought that being an Anglo-Saxon she might think the gesture presumptive. In other words it was an example of Gallic courtesy.

[quote user="Renaud"]Jon Said "If children are to learn language in the context of culture, perhaps learning Welsh or Gaelic (for those who don't already have one of these as a native language) would be a better idea for British school children. These languages could certainly benefit from an elevated profile." Sorry to disagree. [/quote] You go right ahead and disagree! This is meant to be a debate. For the majority of children learning modern European languages at school in the UK (let's pick a figure - 95%?) I would contend that the exercise is a complete waste of both their time and the resources of the education system. They might gain a GCSE or whatever, but they will never again speak the language they have learned, never again read a newspaper in that language and gain little or no appreciation of the culture behind that language. So why bother? The goal of educating children to the extent of being bilingual is an admirable one, but is hardly practical. I'll concede that the Dutch and others might manage it, but one has to take account of the degree to which their culture is influenced by English: it is on the radio, and in the cinema, English language films are normally subtitled in Dutch, not dubbed (too expensive). Dutch children could easily hear English in the home every day, let alone what they get at school. The language is relavent to them. British children might hear French / Spanish / whatever twice a week for an hour a time in the classroom and never outside. To them it is not relavent. The logic behind my suggestion that Welsh or Gaelic might be a better choice is, I think, not entirely half-arsed. It would give children an awareness of the history and culture of Britain that learning a spurious foreign language would not.

[quote user="Blitzen"]The trouble with the UK education system is that they keep adding subjects (Britishness next I believe), so less and less time is available for the ones which are already part of it.  I think we need to teach another language much earlier in schools, so that by the time children come to choose their GCSE subjects they have a much better grounding in that language.  [/quote] I agree with the sentiment, but I find myself asking two questions: 1) Which language would British pupils be best advised to learn. French? German? Spainish? Something from the PRC? They cannot learn them all... If children are to learn language in the context of culture, perhaps learning Welsh or Gaelic (for those who don't already have one of these as a native language) would be a better idea for British school children. These languages could certainly benefit from an elevated profile. 2) Personally, now that I appreciate just how much hard work and constant practice is required to maintain a second language to a high degree of competency, and given the small number of people who would ever actually use a second language in anger, I can no longer see the point in compelling children in the UK to learn another tongue. Keep it as an option for those who want it, but why bother spending hours trying to teach children something in which most have little or no interest and which gains them no lasting benefit? Every year we have guests here with A levels in French (even a degree once) who now speak bearly a word of the language. Given, as I understand, that there are now specialist colleges at secondary levels for science, technology & sport, why not create specialist language centres for those who have an interest? Would this not be a better employment of resources? EDIT - Actually, that is rather more than two questions. Call it two questions with supplimentry inquiries.

[quote user="Dick Smith"] What I have noticed is that adults are much better at understanding poor French than children. Presumably that comes from having less experience, less language skills or something similar. [/quote] [:)] Surely this is simply because the young choose to wilfully misunderstand? I notice when I get on my hind legs and try and din some English into the little blighters they can understand every syllable, because, I suspect, that they know any transgressions will be reported to their mums (not by me - by the real teachers: I'm a far easier touch). This ability they mysteriously lose once they set foot outside the gate...

[quote user="Will "][quote user="Jon"] Out of curiosity, what is quoted for the UK? You're right - if both sets of figures are equally suspect then there could be a valid basis for comparison... [/quote] £22,901 for 2005, according to the TUC. The Office of National Statistics quotes a weekly wage of £431 for the same year (up to £446 in 2006 ), equivalent to an annual figure of £22,900. However, British full time workers put in an average of 39.4 hours per week.   [/quote] OK - that's about €34000. Given that the UK and France have broadly similar GDPs (€29-30k per head), minimum wage (SMIC = about £5.50) and costs & standards of living (obviously lower in France [:)]), the per household figure of €15000 (may be for single person households, looking at the INSEE site)  just does not pass the Funny Look Test. Matt's FT (a paper known to be far more scrupulous in checking than any other) of €29000 lots far more sensible and tallies better with the INSEE site. Taking the €29000 figure (and feel free to correct my reckoning) for a two adult two child household with one partner employed: - Social Chrages (employee) about €6440 - Income tax (three unit household with an allowance of €5800 per unit) = €730 - Total direct "tax" on €29000 = €7170 or 24.7% For a single person on the same wage the income tax would be €2830, so the percentile deduction would rise to 32%.