Swissie

A proposal - if we can agree that the practice recently discussed is illegal and definitely not advised- maybe it would be better to pull that part of the thread, from Q's cash comment, and put it behind us.

lol - we all have Celtic ancestry in this part of the world- Huguenots and all. We live on a Celtic site here. I forgot the Picts and the Jutes. But point taken- Adrian and Antonine walls and Offa's Dyke.

Been there - drank it too - very nice thanks.

Looks great - well done. Was given a 5 man statue in ebony some years back - all intertwined made out of one piece of wood. A project?

lol Big Mac - we are in the Swiss Jura, but only just by 400 metres!

I see! No problem. The house has always been in 3 parts, the Vicar's family+ staff accomodation, the barn and the stables. It lost its agricultural function around 1850s (got all the papers to that effect), and has since been a vicarage only, the stables having become the Parish rooms- which are still used for caricative use only, with the blessings (!) of the Swiss tax office.

I am of pure Huguenot blood - most Brits have a lot of Teutonic genes - you know that bit about the Angles and the Saxons. Lol - fully agree though re. your sentiments V.

Not quite sure about your joke Mac? Our house has been a rural Vicarage since 1587. In those days Vicars in the countryside had to be self-sufficient and have horses to visit their parishioners.

or you could pay it in the buff (envelope of course) - but it seems quite clear now that it is defo not a good idea. Again from capital.fr Restera enfin à échapper à la vigilance du fisc. Celui-ci dispose d'une arme redoutable, baptisée OEIL, qui signale toute transaction anormalement décotée. Pour l'instant 800 à 1000 particuliers se font épingler par année. () Mais attention, les controles s'intensifient et les sanctions sont sévères. Coté acheteur, le prix est réévalué par comparaison avec des biens similaires et les droits d'enregistrement sont redressés, assortis de 0,4%  d'intéret par mois de retard, et le tout majoré de 40%.... Le fisc ou la commune peuvent aussi exiger l'achat du bien, pour le prix déclaré + 10%. Very rough translation: You will then have to try and escape the tax office. They have at their disposal a powerful tool, named THE EYE, which will point to any suspect transaction. so far 800 to 1000 individuals have been caught out per year. However, checks are becoming more frequent and sanctions are severe. From the buyers side, the price is revalued by comparison with similar properties and the documents redrawn + 0.4% interest per month and the whole thing increased by 40% on top. The tax office or the commune can also exercise their right to purchase the property at the price declared + 10%. You will therefore probably get away with a small proportion paid in cash, officially furniture, white goods, etc - lets say max 15% - personally I wouldn't do it.  But 50% is so obvious, especially multiplied over 3 properties at the same time and IMHO VERY risky. 

I agree that seems really unfair RH. My dad used to get quite annoyed about it - as he was one of the few (+mum) - who were paying for their care, because they had been very careful all their life. At the same time, especially in the UK, where property values have multiplied and where a house worth about £4000 in 1960 might be worth £350000 now - can the taxpayer (us) really pay for the totality of care and let children (us again) inherit the lot? I feel the Swiss system, which allows each person a certain sum to distribute to children after death is actually quite fair. Perhaps £20000? Sweet if you are in a private home and run out of money in the UK - you have to GO! Same if your condition becomes worse. I agree that it is obscene that private and at times totally unscrupulous private homes can make such huge profits on our elderly. The owner of my mil's home had a Rolls and a VERY nice house (Weybridge, Surrey) - BUT the staff were really excellent and so was the care- until of course her condition got worse and she was asked to leave for a State run place for Alzheimer sufferers. Thank goodness she died before she had to go there.

There are dozens of entries on Google.fr - just search   les dangers de dessous-de-table. www.newdealimmobilier.fr/blog/dessous-de-table.html     is quite clear www.immostreet.com     les dangers de dessous de table explains possible sanctions mentioned in my previous post - including the risk that the fisc or commune might exercise they 'droit de préemption' and request to buy the property at the value officially paid + 10%. There are many many more. I have no so far been able to find out the possible sanctions for a notaire/immo who encourages or condones such a deal - but I am certain they are also taking risks. We do have a notaire friend who lives just over the border in France - but she is somewhere in Greece at the mo. (Gilou is on the yacht - getting ready to sail to Croatia in the morning- he confirms his advice).

lol, Sweet no - it describes room by room any door and fittings, windows, and all fixtures, including type and style of ironwork, handles, fireplace implements, etc. Anyway - going through it all will hopefully keep me out of trouble! Just found one for 1755 and another from 1769. It will be interesting to compare them. Confirm that the back was a stable for beasts and that pigs were kept downstairs. Also found all the accounts for the tithes. Really must get specialist help in sorting them out.

Just began going through the archives left in a cupboard in the barn. Amazing - but I must get a specialist in to go through them with me and record them properly. So far the oldest document I've found is an inventory from 1624!

He is top of a non alphabetical list. I agree it is better not to have a hierarchy. Thanks for correcting me RH. Do you have any idea re the answer to my question. I feel it is important that it is clearly answered to avoid problems in the future.

So relieved to know your mum is with you and that you've found temporary support. As others have said, my heart goes out to you. My very warmest wishes,   Odile

OK Aosta perhaps. He was very clear, so no need to ask him again, wherever Gilou is.  I believe his answer - but you don't seem to, so it is better to get another opinion. G. is a financial advisor (retired a couple of months ago, after 40 years experience at the highest level)  and one of my oldest friends, who is widowed from my best friend- I'd like a legal opion. Krusty - as well as - as there are some members with a great deal of French legal experience.  It is very important we get a confirmation of my friend's advice. I don't give 2 hoots what Q gets up to. If what he described is legal and above board - hurray - as there are many of us here who would jump at doing the same, but ONLY IF.  If it is not- then it must be crystal clear to all that doing so is illegal - as I believe from all 3 sides, buyer, seller and the solicitor who ignores the matter (especially with new strict rulings re money laundering). If the Fisc realise what has happened they can impose a severe fine + interest- they can also request a compulsory purchase at the (official) price paid + 10% (37500+3750).  Imagine too somebody doing the same, getting caught out and saying 'I knew it is correct, I was told so by Archant's Senior Moderator on their forum'.

Awaiting independent legal opinion Q.

It will, as he had lunch with us before leaving for Italy - must be around Milan by now. So maybe somebody else here could oblige.

As said- he is adamant it is not legal to pay 50% in cash. I would just like confirmation from another legal advisor, tax inspector or solicitor with French experience. There are also of course very strict guidelines about cash, re money laundering.

His squash club is not under any bridge and very friendly. Many of course belong to that OTHER club, but nuff said. Anyway - could we confirm that paying half in cash for a house is illegal from both sides (colour of envelope immaterial)- just so that everybody is clear. Then we can let go of this matter. As you know I can be like a DOG with a bone. Any tax inspectors out there who could confirm the info given by my own advisor?

yep - which is why the only Club he ever agreed to join was the Squash Club

I am just so sorry too but sadly unable to offer any practical help as I live a very long way away. Many of us here are not getting any younger- and we should all prepare contingency plans- but prefer not to think about this (me included). Courage et bonne chance.

We only use recycled envelopes- and they are buff coloured ppp! Just checked with my French legal advisor. He says it is totally illegal to pay for 50% in cash- and that only minor sums for furniture would be legally allowed. Being married to the most honest man in the world, bless him- we will, as usual go the legal route, and cut our cloth accordingly.

[quote user="krusty"]What are the standards like in French care homes ? [/quote] All the staff at the OAP homes my mus was in for 3 years and dad for 1 - were French. We live just over the Swiss border. The standard of care was absolutely topnotch- and in the case of my mum, too much so - and their tender care pushed her to live much much beyond her wishes. I used to chat to staff a lot on our daily visits, and all of them said they would NOT wish to work in a French OAP home and had great concerns about what would happen to their parents in France. My mil's home in the UK was excellent too - private and cost a fortune. After 3 years, her Alzheimers got worse and they told us that she would have to go in a specialised home - they were all so dreadful, and we were broken hearted for her. We didn't know if she had taken the news in, as by then she would not communicate, and we didn't even know if she recognized us on our monthly visits from Leics to Surrey- my sil's went at least 3 times a week, and mil thought she was her mum! Anyway, she was found dead in her bed on the morning of the move. Coincidence? Or some sort of choice she made? Or was she helped by a member of staff who had got very fond of her? Whichever- we were so happy for her that she had left this miserable existence before it got much worse, and lost every little bit of dignity she had got left. It was such a relief. We all got a little bit left to share- we bought a week's timeshare in the most beautiful place in Tuscany, and drink to her health every year. Why should we have benefited from the hugely inflated value of her property and ask taxpayer to pay. Same for my parents - very little left - and we will enjoy the patio and balcony and have a drink to their health there too.

I have no problem understanding that owners often have an inflated idea of what their house is worth. In our case, our and all 3 agents estimates were correct when we put our house on the market in Sept. 08. However, after being taken for a BIG ride by the first viewer - we had to revise value in the Spring of 09 - for very obvious reasons. With hindsight, I would have followed my instinct about the guy, instead of listening to his solicitor and our agent. Hindsight and all that - done and dusted- cost us a lot of stress and money, and but mainly for me that we arrived to late to be there for my parents. No regrets. We took 23% off and got on our way and are very happy. The bit I do not understand is the 50% in a brown envelope. You say it is up to the seller to decide whether this is wrong and tax evasion - are you absolutely sure that the buyer is not also responsible in law? I would be interested if anybody could clarify this. We are considering buying a flat in France- but my husband would never ever consider doing anything like this unless he WAS ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that it is legal and above board.