English language errors or change of emphasis?

[woolybanana]

Yep, very, very good it was too.

[pachapapa]

De bello gallico...of .the beautiful frog.[:-))]

[idun]

NCIS is NCIS in the original version, with Mark Harmon and I watch it too

I just loved ARII's 'you have know idea', that may have been some sort of slip, but it is also very profound.

Sorry Wooly, but I read many things that seem 'off' to me, but I was better with 'sums' than 'discecting sentences' at school.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="bubbles"]Oh, yes!!!!!! Caesar's Gallic Wars..[/quote]This was the problem for me with the classical languages - not the grammar but the awful texts - so Boys' Own and all about wars and other yawn-o-rama macho cr*p.  Soooo boring - turned me off completely, even without the ablative absolute bit.[:D]  I hope that schools and universities find some more interesting stuff for students to read these days.

[Chancer]

I would have been happy to recieve any education in grammar, construction, punctuation or even spelling, my wonderfull trendy progressive comprehensive school, the largest in the UK, so large that the teachers did not know one another, didnt teach or even correct our spelling.

They openly smoked dope in class in front of the pupils, looking back it was probably an act of defiance as no other teachers smoked in class with the exception of the humanities department who were the biggest bunch of radical lefties I have ever met, supposedly we were studying Historical & Social Studies and Geographical & Community studies except that we were never taught any History or Geography just indoctrinated.

It was dubbed in the local media "A training ground for Borstal" and the name stuck because each year the class sizes diminished with kids being sent down and replenished with ones kicked out of the better schools.

No possibility of a grammar school education for me despite taking and passing the 11 plus, learning foreign languages seemed completely abstract to me as I knew of no-one that had ever been abroad, ditto university, I was 12 or 13 before I realised that some people actually lived in something other than social housing, the son of my mums boss asked me "have you always lived in a council house," it was him that explained to me what an owner occupier or private house was, I had no idea at all.

[Gluestick]

Personally, JRC, I believe anyone who perverts the course of learning on ideological grounds in pursuit of a grand social engineering project experiment needs shooting.

Kids are compelled by force of nature to be utterly dependent upon adults to guide them, protect them, nurture them and help them to grow physically as well as mentally.

British society now reaps the results of these trendy experiments and left wing liberal determination towards some spavined vision of Utopian egalitarianism.

Can't do sports: it's elitist.  Can't have exams; you have failures as well as successes, so let's drive down standards and award certificates for failing; don't need to read, write spell and comprehend grammar; just express yourself.

At the time, I railed vehemently against Thatcher's neat wheeze to flog off school playing fields for housing.

So, now we suffer the result: quasi-literate hugely unfit fat blobs spending hours watching dumb TV when they are not playing with their Wii, or X box or whatever.

Kids of 10 presenting with the beginnings of coronary heart disease.

Some achievement.

[woolybanana]

Nice one Guuey.  Now enter Norman, rear left!

[Chancer]

Actually the one exam result that I am very proud of is to have got an unclassified in French at O level in the days when we were allowed to fail - miserably [:D]

I managed to sign my name on the written exam paper but that was all, the oral exam was just 15 minutes of me saying "je ne sais pas" (I didnt even know the verb comprendre)  after saying my name and age.

It makes my achievements here in France all the more satisfying and I often cite the above when someone who patently does not want to learn the language trots out the old excuses, "its hard at may age" and "its many years since I got my O level in French"

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Chancer"]supposedly we were studying Historical & Social Studies and Geographical & Community studies except that we were never taught any History or Geography just indoctrinated.[/quote]

As an example: a ten year old's "English" homework question from the late 70s early 80s. I kid you not............

Which Social Class do the following people belong to?

Examples:

1.  Darling; shall we visit the local wine bar for a gin and tonic?

2.  Fancy going over the pub for a beer?

[Clarkkent]

I went to a grammar school. It is one of the oldest schools in England. I can still analyse sentences if I want. I was taught Latin - for all the wrong reasons (ie because it was the focal point of academic snobbery).

When I went there, biology was not taught - it was a "girl's subject". Before I left it was introduced but only for the lowest stream who would not be able to cope with physics or chemistry. There was a large playing field about half a mile from the school. There were some good tennis courts there, but they were never used because tennis was a "girl's game".

The prevailing attitude in the school was "us or them" - the small number of boys who were perceived to be successful were coached and encouraged, the greater mass of also rans were left pretty much to their own devices. The headmaster was an arrogant bully and he set the standard: discipline was maintained by fear and by corporal punishment. Prefects were authorised to beat wrongdoers with plimsolls.

Shortly after I left, the head died and was replaced by man who was more humane and who set about to improve the academic standing of the school. He introduced music and before long there was a school choir and an orchestra. He allowed biology to be available to anyone who wanted to study it and eventually the school sent students to medical schools.

The school is still a grammar school and is now regarded as excellent. But I think that it is misguided to look back and imagine that there was a golden age of grammar school education.

 

[Gluestick]

So............the whole ethos of Grammar Schools was wrong because you had the whole misfortune to attend a bad one?

Knowledge of Latin allows easier comprehension of all the Romance languages.

Interesting that Germany modelled its education system on Britain's: Grammar Schools for those who would hopefully progress to university and the professions, arts and humanities, science, medicine and etc. Equivalent to Secondary Modern for future artisans and technician-engineers.

There was a fascinating programme about German schools, some years back on BBC Two: they presenter interviewed boys from German Secondary Modern equivalents, who were explaining how they were developing programme codes for CNC machines and the like: explaining what they were doing in excellent and fluent English...........

Indeed; Germany's post-war success in export-led manufacturing (Which is once again coming to the fore, globally) was built on the back of realising not everyone wanted to be or could be a model, football star, DJ or pop singer or celeb...........

 Mine was an excellent school: we had wonderful music, where our head of music was a fellow of the Royal  College of Church Organists: our head biology master was a survivor from the Bamboo Railroad: "Spike" Limburgh; (He's mentioned in Russell Braddon's famous book, "Camp on Blood Island").

And we had tennis courts: and I played for the school.

The school spawned bishops, one alumni who almost became Archbishop of Canterbury: MPs, county cricketers; top rugger players; academics galore.

I'm proud to count myself as an old boy.

And what's more, eternally grateful for the education I received.

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="Gluestick"]So............the whole ethos of Grammar Schools was wrong because you had the whole misfortune to attend a bad one? [/quote]

No. That is not what I said. Why do you feel the need to sneer at someone else's experience because it does not coincide with your own?

[quote] Knowledge of Latin allows easier comprehension of all the Romance languages.[/quote]

And that is its strength. Learning Latin, however, conveys no advantage that learning any other subject does not also convey.

I'm glad you enjoyed your grammar school education. I suspect that your secondary school days may have later than mine and that had I attended my school when you attended yours my experiences may have been different.

[woolybanana]

Hey guys, I think what Gluey is talking about is rigour, which is certainly NOT the case these days.

[pachapapa]

Knowledge of Latin allows easier comprehension of all the Romance languages.
Krap[:D]   I have found latin of no practical aid in learning french,spanish,italian and portuguese. I assume that the same opinion would apply to roumanian,romance,catalan,gallego,valenciano,occitan, etc.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

Knowledge of Latin allows easier comprehension of all the Romance languages.

Krap[:D]   I have found latin of no practical aid in learning french,spanish,italian and portuguese. I assume that the same opinion would apply to roumanian,romance,catalan,gallego,valenciano,occitan, etc.

[/quote]

Probably since you actually studied Latin American...........

[Www]

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Clarkkent"]

[quote user="Gluestick"]So............the whole ethos of Grammar Schools was wrong because you had the whole misfortune to attend a bad one? [/quote]

No. That is not what I said. Why do you feel the need to sneer at someone else's experience because it does not coincide with your own?[/quote]

I was honestly not "Sneering", CK: however your post came over as if you yourself were excoriating Grammar Schools, generally: viz,

"But I think that it is misguided to look back and imagine that there was a golden age of grammar school education."

Now that statement I did and would disagree with: since clearly there was.

[quote] Knowledge of Latin allows easier comprehension of all the Romance languages.[/quote]

[quote]And that is its strength. Learning Latin, however, conveys no advantage that learning any other subject does not also convey.[/quote]

Again, fundamentally disagree. Knowledge of and prowess with the written word is essential for proper degree standard and subsequent learning: since it is all centred on demonstrating not only knowledge, but more critically its application: being able to express this succinctly, powerfully and with passion, compels the examiner to award highest possible marks.

[quote]I'm glad you enjoyed your grammar school education. I suspect that your secondary school days may have later than mine and that had I attended my school when you attended yours my experiences may have been different.

[/quote]

Me: early 1950s.

I regularly mix, socially, with Old Boys who put in their time in the 1940s: indeed, one point of great interest at present (For the Old Boys Association), is the period when the school was evacuated to Derbyshire, right at the beginning of WWII and an archive of reflections, photos and reminiscences is presently building.

Yet to meet just one, with anything other than positive, happy and grateful experiences.

I am so very sad, CK, that your own experience was wildly disparate: every alumni I meet has, overall, happy and fond memories of our own "Golden Age".

Quite obviously, the head of any school, then, dictated and set its ethos: and there were, years back, far fewer checks and balances against despotic autocracy.

[Loiseau]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

... every alumni I meet ...

[/quote]

The Latin teaching can't have been that good... [Www]

Angela

[woolybanana]

They come in pairs!

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Loiseau"][quote user="Gluestick"]

... every alumni I meet ...

[/quote]

The Latin teaching can't have been that good... [Www]

Angela
[/quote]

alumni is commonly used in UK to refer to an obese alumnus[6]

[Clarkkent]

Gluestick

Me - early 50s. So we were contemporaries. I found this ...

[quote]So............the whole ethos of Grammar Schools was wrong because you had the whole misfortune to attend a bad one? [/quote]

... shall we say ... unfortunate. I used the term "golden age" - and I still maintain that there was no golden age of grammar schools - just as when we were young all summers were not endless.

Latin should be studied for its own sake and not for the mythological advantages some people think it endows. It is of limited use in the study of English, which has two roots: latinate Norman French and Germanic languages brought in by earlier invaders. For example, Latin is a language which is entirely infective, English has very little inflection. It is possible, in English, to express oneself with simplicity in Anglo-Saxon and and with complexity in Norman French. Which of the following expressions do you consider to be easier to understand?

-   Meretricious sesquipedianism, or

-   Bullsh*t baffles brains?

I know individuals who believe that studying Latin has made them more intelligent and better at problem solving than other people. There is, of course, no evidence to support this. What evidence there is, from Liam Hudson, suggests that there may be a training effect from studying Latin which promotes convergent thinking, arguably less useful in problem solving than divergent thinking. "Prowess with the written word" isn't provided by a rigid dead Mediterranean language but by an understanding of the richness and flexibility of English.

 

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Loiseau"][quote user="Gluestick"]

... every alumni I meet ...

[/quote]

The Latin teaching can't have been that good... [Www]

Angela

[/quote]

Bad construction admitted, Angela. I'm doing this on the fly between more critically important stuff.

Like working.

I look forward to reading your own impeccable grammar and sentence construction.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Clarkkent"]

Gluestick

Me - early 50s. So we were contemporaries. I found this ...

[quote]So............the whole ethos of Grammar Schools was wrong because you had the whole misfortune to attend a bad one? [/quote]

... shall we say ... unfortunate. I used the term "golden age" - and I still maintain that there was no golden age of grammar schools - just as when we were young all summers were not endless.[/quote]

Seeing the effects of "New Education", CK, during my own recent past involvement with universities, various training and HFE initiatives etc, and in everyday commerce, I fear we going to have to agree to disagree.

Happy Christmas.

[Clarkkent]

And a Happy Christmas to you, Gluestick. May 2011 bring harmony and pleasure.

[pachapapa]

So that was the cause of my difficulties learning german, too much latin at preparatory school.[I]

[NormanH]

I heartily recommend a voice to text program such Dragon naturally speaking which listens to you and types up what you say  avoiding spelling mistakes which come from clumsy fingers.