Christine Animal Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="Mel"] Prior to this incident, I knew no more about the man than I now know about the hotel maid, but listening to those who did have knowledge of him, judging by his perceived past, he is obviously as guilty as hell... (?)[/quote] Innocent until proven guilty. The way a man in his position is being treated at the moment seems absolutely grotesque and the filming we have seen of him very humiliating.We can only wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="Christine Animal"] Innocent until proven guilty. [/quote]But this is the court of public opinion. Judge, jury and executioner. I have no time for rapists, don't get me wrong. If he is one, then I hope he gets the maximum punishment which local laws allow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="Christine Animal"] Innocent until proven guilty. The way a man in his position is being treated at the moment seems absolutely grotesque and the filming we have seen of him very humiliating.We can only wait and see. [/quote]Agree 100% innocent until proven guilty. However, how do you suggest 'a man in his position' should be treated???? He's been accused of a very serious crime. Should he be treated differently than a man of lesser position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I think, Lori, that the average Brit just isn't used to this "perp' walk" stuff, nor the intrusion of the press in such vast numbers into courtrooms. I suspect many of us would find the way in which the average US citizen is treated by the justice and penal system quite grotesque and humiliating also. It does seem to me, as it seems to to Christine, that these methods are well over the top for somebody who is still innocent in the eyes of the law until the jury reaches a verdict or the district attourney makes a plea bargain with him. I agree, Lori, the same treatment for all - but perhaps a little more humane for all who are not yet convicted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="cooperlola"] I suspect many of us would find the way in which the average US citizen is treated by the justice and penal system quite grotesque and humiliating also.[/quote]Interesting, but the law is the law, where-ever we are; the USA, France, the UK, Yemen.... I don't think anyone's position should entitle them to different treatment (and I realize you agreed with that Cooperlola).[quote user="cooperlola"] It does seem to me, as it seems to to Christine, that these methods are well over the top for somebody who is still innocent in the eyes of the law until the jury reaches a verdict or the district attourney makes a plea bargain with him.[/quote]Apparently, the judge deemed him a flight risk. This happens in the USA all the time. Money and power don't always buy your way out of the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 The flight risk thing I absolutely get - the wealthier you are, the easier it is to get away and escape the law. But it's the handcuffing - regardless of offence and risk to the law enforcers - and the public nature of arraignments etc which I find disturbing. I'm also not sure that it helps get justice for the defendent - those images will be with whomever gets on the jury and it's difficult to see how all this publicity can help them to be impartial. He's not a US citizen though, so maybe that will help in this regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="Lori"](snip)... the law is the law, where-ever we are; the USA, France, the UK, Yemen.... I don't think anyone's position should entitle them to different treatment (snip)...Apparently, the judge deemed him a flight risk. This happens in the USA all the time. Money and power don't always buy your way out of the process.[/quote]Quite.As could be expected, a lot of reports on the French news this morning were stating that the US prosecutor's dept (specifically Cyrus Vance Jr) is making the process tougher and more humiliating for DSK, seemingly to gain votes for a future re-election.Jack Lang said yesterday that "they were clearly out to take an important Frenchman out". French reporters have talked about "French bashing" (and explained what it means).The differences between the systems are horrifying a lot of French commentators. I would have thought the numerous US police series on the telly would have made that clearer...The fact that the process is open to the news, the suspect being lead in handcuffs, the prosecution being able to state the charges to the judge in public without the defence being able to refute them... all this is seen as a system loaded against the suspect and appears to fly against the presumption of innocence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I suppose not everyone likes a good murder as I do and I do enjoy my crime drama on tv, so I know that perps are cuffed in the USA, and it seems to be everyone.NOW before anyone in France gets on their high horse about this, and no, I'm talking generally and not to the good people on here who happen to be french. Maybe, just maybe they should look at their own legal system. What could be so degrading as to be arrested and kept locked up for years until the 'justice' in France actually gets around to any sort of trial. Some are found guilty and have already have time served and are let out immediately, but those that are not guilty are still incarcerated for years. So maybe DSK should thank his lucky stars that his court case will be held quite promptly, well in comparison to France it will and then if he is innocent can get on with his life. He may not be able to go back to his old job, but a rich man could surely do some good in the world, this need not ruin his life........ if he is innocent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 You're right, idun, there are definite aspects of the French justice system which could be improved on.The recent attempt at changes have not gone down well, yet access to counsel during a police interview is a basic right in the Anglo-Saxon justice system.I wonder if those shouting "presumption of innocence" will sing the same song when the the next guys called Nazim or Ahmed are suspected of a crime in Paris, Lille or Lyon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="Clair"]I wonder if those shouting "presumption of innocence" will sing the same song when the the next guys called Nazim or Ahmed are suspected of a crime in Paris, Lille or Lyon...[/quote]Yes. Absolutely. Without a shadow of a doubt.It's what separates the civilised from the Nazims, Ahmeds, Kaczynskis et al who blow people up regardless of who they are without thought for the innocent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Clair"]I wonder if those shouting "presumption of innocence" will sing the same song when the the next guys called Nazim or Ahmed are suspected of a crime in Paris, Lille or Lyon...[/quote]Yes. Absolutely. Without a shadow of a doubt.It's what separates the civilised from the Nazims, Ahmeds, Kaczynskis et al who blow people up regardless of who they are without thought for the innocent.[/quote]You will.Will Frenchy Joe Bloggs do it too when Ahmed or Nazim are accused of attacking a woman in Sarcelles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Well, I guess I hope that's what separates me from French/Brit/Turkish/Saudi/Ozzie Joe Bloggs too then, Clair.[:D] It's like those irregular verbs from Yes Minister: One rule for us, another for people we like and a third for those we don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Does Ozzy Joe Bloggs really care about a French woman attacked in Sarcelles? [:P]I am curious... What is Ozzy Joe Bloggs called? [8-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="Clair"]I am curious... What is Ozzy Joe Bloggs called? [8-)][/quote]Probably Bruce something-or-other![:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzer Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I heard on Newsnight last night, and have just read in the First Post that in an interview given to a French journalist last month, DSK imagined a scenario in which a woman who had been raped was paid to blame him.Gets more bizarre by the minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 "Because Strauss-Kahn was considered the likely socialist candidate for president in the upcoming French elections, his lavish lifestyle was all over the French media, including pictures of him getting into a Porsche, raising questions of whether he could be a true socialist candidate with the wealth he has garnered."Funny !Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/05/17/hotels-porsches-and-no-taxes-dominique-strauss-kahns-maddening-imf-perks/#ixzz1MdI8hmRF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Animal Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 You're just a bit behind on the news Lori ! [:D]We're already on the next instalment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Too right! If you're a socialist, you should go by bike or 2CV (second-hand at least!) and so should your friends! [:D][:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="Jazzer"]I heard on Newsnight last night, and have just read in the First Post that in an interview given to a French journalist last month, DSK imagined a scenario in which a woman who had been raped was paid to blame him.Gets more bizarre by the minute.[/quote]He also said that there were three ways to get to him: his dosh (le fric), women and his Jewishness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="Christine Animal"]You're just a bit behind on the news Lori ! [:D][/quote]Certainly not the first time ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5-element Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Mind you Lori, it is all moving so fast, following the DSK saga is so much easier if you can make it a full-time assignment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="Clair"][quote user="Jazzer"]I heard on Newsnight last night, and have just read in the First Post that in an interview given to a French journalist last month, DSK imagined a scenario in which a woman who had been raped was paid to blame him. Gets more bizarre by the minute.[/quote]He also said that there were three ways to get to him: his dosh (le fric), women and his Jewishness.[/quote] Well one thing, in NYC I do not believe that his jewishness will work against him. Now if his name had been like these: Nazims, Ahmeds, Kaczynskis then maybe. I also do not believe that NYC is against wealth either. We'll see about 'women' won't we. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchie Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I think a few things that have been written in this thread are clearly OTT ! [:@] [6]For the moment, nothing has been proved, so we should all be careful about what we write and stop spitting at him.But this is not what shocked me .Some of you asserted that French people reacted with a smile, we would be a nation of gros déguelasses ready to harrass any women, the most widespread reaction would be to wonder if the young lady was not lesbian, and to sort of support the man, because harrassing or assaulting women would be a sign of good health for a man ...Hey hey, of course everybody's talking about it, and at work I meet about 50 teachers a day, plus about 100 pupils, I ve talked about it with my baker, with my neighbour, my family, etc, and I ve heard NO ONE reacting the way you said.So please, un peu de mesure.... and let's stop making generalizations !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="Frenchie"]Some of you asserted that French people reacted with a smile, we would be a nation of gros déguelasses ready to harrass any women, the most widespread reaction would be to wonder if the young lady was not lesbian, and to sort of support the man, because harrassing or assaulting women would be a sign of good health for a man ...Hey hey, of course everybody's talking about it, and at work I meet about 50 teachers a day, plus about 100 pupils, I ve talked about it with my baker, with my neighbour, my family, etc, and I ve heard NO ONE reacting the way you said.So please, un peu de mesure.... [/quote]Odd huh. I thought that too. My French friends (male and female) don't feel that way. They have indicated no great shock, but great displeasure. I hear a great deal of anti-American chatter too. Not too surprising either. The judicial systems are quite different but to knock one over the other gets pretty dicey IMO.And the blaming the alleged victim thing is old hat. We'll see a lot more of that I'm sure. Nasty business all the way around.I can't help feeling sorry for the maid. If the reports are true (and who knows at this point), I can't imagine she asked / agreed to his aggressions. But, as I'm sure many would say, what do I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote user="Frenchie"]For the moment, nothing has been proved, so we should all be careful about what we write and stop spitting at him.[/quote]Aside from the charges which have been brought against him in this instance, the fact remains that, by all accounts, DSK appears to have made a habit of lavishing his affections (let's be poetic about it) on women, sometimes coming a bit strong according to several people.By all accounts, his habit has been a secret de Polichinelle within the political and journalistic world.By all accounts, no one seems to have persuaded him that this habit may have been unacceptable to 50% of voters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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