Correcting french

[idun]

I have been in France a week now, seen family and quite a lot of friends. I have seen a couple of english friends too and just loved speaking franglais, it is just so relaxing for all of us to speak franglais.

No one corrected my french until today, a friend of my sons whispered some grammatical correction to me and said the, in France we say` blah blah blah´ I cannot even remember what he said now, something far too much for me. Also it cut the conversation dead, absolutely dead.

I understand that most of us have to learn and in some way or other our french should get to a level that people can at least understand our french and in my case my accent too, but I have always found the correcting me and cutting into a perfectly decent conversation is awful. Maybe if we were sat quietly and sort of having a proper lesson it would be different, but when there is  a group having a chat or even putting the world to rights, I simply do not like it one little bit. 

Ofcourse this is not the first time it has happened to me. People who know me do not do it, it is usually their friends who do. 

It has its place but not in the middle of a conversation as far as I am concerned.

[NormanH]

I gave up trying to speak correct French many years ago. Now if anyone corrects me I maintain very firmly that the so-called 'charm' of the language is like the state of many of the houses, unmodernised [:D]with primitive jakes, and  that is hasn't evolved but been caught in a linguistic Disneyland.  I don't know if I really think that but attack is a good defence

[nectarine]

I understand that you're deeply offended, but you say that he whispered the correction to you ... might he have been impressed with the French you were saying and thinking that you might want a quiet correction to help your learning? Just a different point of view ..

In my experience, just trying to say anything, though, is encouraging even if you make mistakes. I've made huge clangers: asked if a jar of jam contained condoms (instead of additives), told someone I had a prostitute in my loft that I wanted to shoot (instead of a polecat), told a group of men that I was feeling horny (rather than hot) ... the list goes on.

[Gardengirl]

I was very politely corrected by an elderly woman I'd just met yesterday - it was the subjunctive and I knew it was vecu really, but after a broken night and a very busy day travelling my brain just didn't offer that word to me. She then asked if it was OK to have corrected me - and of course I said it was - I really didn't mind, and we were getting on so well.

However, I have a French neighbour who was also a good friend, who corrects my husband and me often, but in an unpleasant manner - and used to demand that we repeated after her! Having met the day we moved in 5 years ago, she has always been of the opinion that neither my husband or I can speak French - and she worried hugely from Switzerland when my husband was in hospital recently, as she was convinced that I wouldn't be able to cope with hospital matters! Of course, I had little problem with hospital bureucracy; I don't like to blow my own trumpet, but my French knowledge and accent aren't at all bad and I chat happily and often at length with many people I meet, such as the woman yesterday, who only speaks French. Incidentally, we very rarely correct our neighbour's English unless she asks us about particular words - she's not great at it, but tries hard and manages most of the time.

I think it depends how it's done that's important - and how often! A whisper in my ear wouldn't offend me at all.

[YCCMB]

LOL! If I had a quid for every time people have said to me (both English speakers learning French and people learning English) "The problem is, even if I ask people to correct me, they don't!" I'd be comfortably retired by now.

It's really a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, and is peculiar to both the speaker and the listener as to how they react, which is what makes it a minefield.

Of course, there's a time and a place, but it's also very personality-driven. Some people have a gift and are able to correct you in a non-threatening way without making you feel as if you've just committed a cardinal sin or made a complete idiot of yourself, others make you feel like a naughty schoolkid who hasn't paid attention in class.

One of my very good friends in France, who is something of a grammar pedant (that's an observation, BTW, not a criticism) but also calls a spade a spade under any circumstances, pulled me up on something I'd said with the words "At last! it's not often you make a mistake but that's definitely a mistake!" (flattery delivered with a sledgehammer). The only witnesses were her family, we all laughed out loud, and although it killed that part of the conversation, it opened up a whole new discussion and lots of argument and anecdote, which is what eating with friends in France is all about.

[Chancer]

I actively encourage correction although very few will do so, I have developed the art of reading their expressions and as soon as I see the signs I say "how should that be said?"

TBH I am very lucky if I am allowed to speak and even luckier if one just person actually listens to me, I am constantly interrupted, have my conversations finished for me, told that they know what I was going to say, or just completely ignored in a very obvious manner which brings back memories of my childhood when told "children are to be seen and not heard"

I think that it may considered rude amongst the French to correct though as my good friend who does (she was my teacher) will only do so one to one and never when others are present, although she will explain to them what I meant to say, I ask her and she says it doesnt matter, yet clearly it does when we are alone.

I have encountered a couple of guys that love to correct the English in a very public and humiliating way but they are just bullies through and through, the apologetic expressions of the others says it all. Doesnt sound like your person was one of them Idun.

For the last few months I have had several soirées, the only times that I have really enjoyed having guests in France as sadly those that dont want to let me speak or are incapable of listening are even worse in my house, I think that perhaps they get drunk before coming through fear of eating something alien, anyway these evenings are with 3 young teaching assistants (down to 2 now soon none at all), what is so refreshing is that when one of us speaks the others all listen actively, no interruptions other than to discuss whatever word is not understood which often turns out to have been wrong so its a group correction thing, these will be my fondest memories from France.

[Loiseau]

I think it's ok to be corrected if you're in just a one-on-one conversation, but it would, as idun says, be rude to the "correctee" and bring the conversation to a grinding halt if several people were chatting together.

Angela

[Patf]

Like Chancer I often ask for the correct way to say something, or some french vocabulary. But I don't think I've  ever been corrected. Possibly because I babble on very fast, probably making many mistakes, and they have a job keeping up and understanding me.

They quite often ask "quoi?"

Idun - as it was a young lad who corrected you he hadn't had the experience yet when to intervene and when not.

[Chancer]

I should have precised, for the teaching assistants and I, French is our second or third language and the only common one amongst us, we are all here to learn it.

I did get corrected recently and quite publically too but I was glad of it even though I knew of my mistake as soon as the words had left my mouth, in a classroom whilst on a course to learn how to respond to diving accidents, barotraumatisms etc, I asked the formateur if he could speak louder as I couldnt listen to him and there were worried embarrassed looks all round, a lady from my old diving club explained "il veut dire entendre" [:)]

In fact the problem was her husband and his potes who were all having a jolly good loud time and ignoring the lesson but preventing me from hearing, now that is something that I often experience and find very very rude, whenever there is a public gathering and a speaker, it could be the Maire giving his voeux or whatever, groups of people dont want to listen so they talk loudly amongst themselves until the others try to silence them with a "schuut!"

Again its always those that are poor listeners, the husband I referred to before I had nicknamed Alé and when the others realised why they started using it and it stuck, it drives him mad because no-one will explain to him what it means, just that its Chancers affectionate surnom for him.

Alé = à l'ecoute [;-)]

[idun]

Not a young lad, someone maybe of my age.

I do ask friends how to say something or tell that I am having problems with some expressions, knowing that they know that it is the moment for a little learning session, but never in full conversation.

I have listened for hours to one friend who needed to talk, terrible things happening in her life. I have talked a lot too and we have had a lot of laughs.

Even if my french is at worst iffy, it is very fluent iffy and sans hesitation. Why would someone stop me, even discretely to correct me. Sadly I am at the age, where I can all too easily forget my thread, he killed the conversation completely.

[5-element]

Betty, your post is a huge source of relief to me - I, too, find this "damned if I do, and damned if I don't". On the one hand, I remember a friend of mine being deeply, deeply offended when I corrected her once we were in a restaurant and it was clear the waiter did not understand her French -  she sulked and sulked and told me how mortified she was. I correct Mr. 5-E's French all the time, which is not always judicious or conducive to harmonious marital relations.[:D] as he thinks my expectations are unrealistic. On the other hand, I find it incredibly tedious when anglophones who are learning French insist on speaking French to me - and trying not to offend, I just switch to English (trying my best Sloane accent) - after what is usually a very short time, we all revert to English and can actually have a decent conversation. But with my bilingual friends, I find it so relaxing to just go back and forth between the 2 languages, we can have a lot of fun that way, I love that very special kind of communication.

However, thank you to those of you who expressed your dislike of  being corrected the wrong way or at the wrong time. It is helpful to hear, as I must be guilty of insensitivity sometimes, must be a little more careful.

[idun]

I think that some of the replies have made me realise that some people do not really mind and just shows how different we all are.

If we ever meet 5E I wonder what we will speak, I would hate to upset you.

[YCCMB]

Something about which I feel very strongly is that, very often, fluency is more important than accuracy. We all know of people who try to speak English and find it difficult, but we also know that unless their English is really basic, we manage to understand what they're trying to say, and we respond to them accordingly. We don't correct, because we've understood, therefore they have got their message across, even if there have been mistakes. If we correct too often, then the speaker feels increasingly stupid and intimidated and then becomes reluctant to speak at all.

[mint]

But I LOVE being corrected!

Once someone, especially a stranger, has corrected me, I usually manage to remember the correction for ever more afterwards.

OTOH, I NEVER correct someone's English (well, maybe the OH's now and again when he uses one of his Welsh constructions and turns it into "funny" English),

I guess as I am learning the language in an active way and trying to improve all the time, I treat every correction as a free lesson and one to be treasured [:D]

[Chancer]

I also love being corrected, I guess that you have to try and judge how the other person feels about it.

I would never try to correct a French persons English in France unless they specifically asked me to, but over 8 years I there have probably only been 2 or 3 occasions when people have tried speaking English apart from when they are drunk and just dribble out n'importe quoi.

In England is someone is there to learn the language then I will but I follow Bettys rule, only if I dont understand or if someone else might misunderstand, I had my friends daughter stay about 10 years ago, she was then studying to be an English teacher, thankfully she gave it up as she would have been a real garce, I found her a well paid summer job, gave her free board and lodgings, ferried her around lots and generally was on hand to cope with her mood swings and tantrums as she was at the time a troubled teenager, my friend who gave her the job said never ever ask me to do anything like that again Chancer!

Anyway one day I asked her if she liked something it was a foodstuff cant recall what, she gave me a withering look and said "naturally!" in a disdainfull tone as if I should have known, only a moron like me would ask the question,so I served it up.  She said "I tell you I dont like this!!!!" so I said "I thought you said you did" "No!" she replied, "I said NATURALLY!!!" nat reely = not really [8-)]

I explained that she should watch her prononciation on that one or she would be misunderstood by others and she flipped an said "Well I can tell you that you speak French crap!!!" [:-))]

The other correction I tried and failed with was her spoken use of moreover instead of also.

I dont take risks now, even if someone is always asking me how to say something I dont assume that they will be happy for me to correct them, but I like Sweet17 am delighted on the rare occasions when someone does.

[Frecossais]

Years ago I got to know the Directrice of our local village school, and we socialised for a while. I loved her way of correcting my French, she'd repeat what I said, slightly emphasising the proper word order or verb or whatever. I learnt a lot from her. Nowadays, like you Idun, most corrections and new vocabulary are in one ear and straight out of the other!

[YCCMB]

But, as a corrector rather than a correctee, how do you tell when a person says " please correct me if I make a mistake" whether (and to what extent) they mean it??

It's the linguistic equivalent of "does my bum look big in this?" which takes me right back to my earlier comment: damned if you do, damned if you don't!! I get paid to correct people's linguistic mistakes, ( which is one of several reasons why I rarely do it in my free time!) and, even in that teacher:pupil situation it can be tough.

[Rabbie]

I never correct anyone unless they ask me to. Even then I try to be careful on how I do it. Fallen into that trap too many times[:)].

However I do welcome any help when I am trying to speak a foreign language

[idun]

I have to admit that friends and I discussed my french  the other night. We were talking about the trips we have had in other countries and that usually english is the language that is most understood. And I would find my french friends speaking english, which they have never done with me.

As they said, they never did other than speak french to me, help me when I asked, but never stopped me talking. Anyway, I often make them laugh, so why would they?

[NormanH]

"I would find my french friends speaking english, which they have never done with me."

I had that experience recently, when I was invited to a meal where there was an English couple who really spoke virtually no French at all.

Several French people I know amazed me by managing quite reasonable English when I really had the impression that they knew none at all from when they are with me.

[Frecossais]

Betty, it's hard to gauge whether people might appreciate being corrected or not outside the teacher/pupil relationship. I suppose if they ask you, or possibly if they're making the same mistake over and over again, you might tell them. If not say nowt unless you know them extremely well.

You're right, it could be a minefield.

[Chancer]

[quote user="NormanH"]"I would find my french friends speaking english, which they have never done with me."

I had that experience recently, when I was invited to a meal where there was an English couple who really spoke virtually no French at all.
Several French people I know amazed me by managing quite reasonable English when I really had the impression that they knew none at all from when they are with me.
[/quote]

You can imagine my surprise when my very well educated French girlfriend of several years after 18 months and who had never even said more than yes, no, please, thankyou to my own family, and most of that in French, suddenly spoke far better English than my French when the vicar asked her if she understood and had enjoyed the service.

I was absolutely gob-smacked, I knew that she had had a very good education and must have studied English to a high level, plus she is the sort to always get the best grades, she had also surprised me at times by knowing the English for some quite complex French terms that I couldnt understand her French explanation of but that day in church she shook me to the core, its always the quiet ones isnt it!!!

I am quite flattered that people choose not to use their English at all in my company.