masculin ou feminin = a lot of misunderstanding!

[Chancer]

Reading another one I learned something that I didnt know about masculin/feminin nouns.

 

Copaille =  Nancy boy. - noun feminine pejorative.

 

It goes on to say that the word was originally masculine but as is the case with words having a high pejorative connotation, the feminine is more insulting [:-))]

[mint]

[quote user="Chancer"]

Reading another one I learned something that I didnt know about masculin/feminin nouns.

 

Copaille =  Nancy boy. - noun feminine pejorative.

 

It goes on to say that the word was originally masculine but as is the case with words having a high pejorative connotation, the feminine is more insulting [:-))]

[/quote]

Yes, a bit like le flic but la flicaille more insulting!

[woolybanana]

The problem with this debate is that it is essentially sterile; few of us will ever master (or is that mistress, these days) the subtleties of French grammar and vocabulary. Heck, the vast majority of the French themselves can't do it.

So, either we spend our time desperately trying to learn these things, or we simply admit to our ignorance (even if it means we sometimes manage to put our feet into the plate) or, we begin to try to develop strategies to get round the problem.

I would suggest that using the plural form might help if you are not sure of the sex of a word (!) and try to avoid adjectives which might have a disagreement. Or, if in friendly and non-judgemental company, ask if a word is 'oh le le' or 'oh la la'. It breaks the ice.

Or, be like Norman, and don't speak, just mumble and glower!

[mint]

Yes, Wooly, but some of us like to indulge in these types of discussions and why not just for the sheer HELL of it?  I use uppercase for HELL advisedly[:D]

[idun]

 And I speak and smile, and look apologetic a lot of the time, apart from with friends who when the mood takes them, take the mickey, good naturedly.

It is OK, they know that their language is 'difficult' and one of my friends uses a scribe quite often........... ca va dire, she pays someone to write letters in good french. Maybe we can get away with iffy french if the person we write to knows we are not french, do we really  though? Or maybe many of you write far better french than I do?

My son rewrote a letter for me a couple of weeks ago, but I found the tone of it, harsh, and it was not really how I wanted to come across, but it was correct, and I wonder what the recipient thought of it as they usually have my own offerings.

Sterile thread, I don't really think so. And it is sort of reassuring that others have the same problems I do. I was going to say, struggle as I do, but really, I am way past that stage, I simply talk these days and if it is right or wrong, we get there in the end.

[Chancer]

I think you will find its ça veut dire Idun which further illustrâtes our difficulties, I had to look it up as I was in no way sure, I could have found that I was saying it wrong all these years, I have never seen it written before.

 

IIRC Albof wrote "comme même" once, he had been saying it for 20 years.

 

I know people that have been here 30 years, speak the language perfectly but will never write a letter, one is the sales director for a national language company, his French wife writes all his letters for him.

 

I have never let it put me off or hold me back, I recall very early on I asked an electrician to help me compose a letter asking for a Consuel inspection as my French was virtually non existant, he seemed uncomfortable and when i saw what he had written even with my limited comprehension I realised that he was virtually illiterate, had never written anything in his life and that my worst attempt would be far better and more polite than his best, it gave me confidence, I now realise that most of the tradesmen around here struggle with literacy and that is putting it kindly, against that backdrop why should I or we feel embarrassed to write?

[idun]

LOL I could say je m'en fous........ but my son says that that isn't very polite, so as he would want, ca m'est egal, odd old language innit!

I am sat here laughing about this.[:D]

[mint]

Id, you are right or t'a raison as they say around here.  I love having a go and I too used to say and still do say je m'en fous.  In polite society, I might say  je m'en friche but all my friends around me know that I make mistakes and they take the pi@@ mercilously but good-naturedly.

And, Chance, I have NEVER resorted to asking anyone else to write letters for me and, even when my French was virtually non-existent, I wrote letters using the little language I had and with a dictionary to hand.

Today, I had to go on one of those on-line chats where there is someone on the other end, WAITING and replying to your post.  And it was a bit of a test which I hope I had passed as she agreed to do what I'd requested after trying her best to dissuade me.

I do not find learning French a trial but I am something of a trainspotter with words so I enjoy what might appear to some as irredeemably dreary.  I love posting these sorts of questions on the forum and I await the replies and I assure everybody that I read EVERY word that they write!

[Judith]

I think I have most probably forgotten more of the French I have learnt than what I can now remember.  My spoken French advanced by leaps and bounds when I gave up worrying whether what I was saying was grammatically correct - I go along, correcting myself as I go, apologising - and everyone is more than happy, though some pull my leg along the way.

Written French has always been easier for me, as it was mainly how I learnt  A level French all those years ago - but again, much is forgotten.  I am not really surprised that many French people cannot write, or do not write, it really is the most difficult language to come to terms with completely. 

[Gardengirl]

I've always taken a deep breath, just opened my mouth and said what seemed right at the time - it mostly seemed to get across what I wanted to say. That was after my first ever visit to France aged 13, when I could speak virtually no understandable French when on a school exchange and the family spoke no English.

Now, of course, I know a lot of what I said wasn't at all correct, but hardly anyone corrected me, just went along with it.

Since starting to take English classes for French people at AVF a few years ago, so many of them are even more generous with praise as they realise the problems they have with brushing up English from the past. It's amazing to think I've been learning French for 60 years on and off though!

[Judith]

Yes, GG,

Anyone who has tried to learn a foreign language, or taught children to speak their own languages understands much more the difficulties, and is always much more prepared to tolerate errors, and to help as needed.  Makes a great difference.

[Al Rogers]

A fascinating thread – but one that's done little to bolster my confidence in mastering French before I move over from the UK soon. I hadn't come across "break" as the French term for an estate car but was struck by its similarity to shooting-brake, that splended old term for a vehicle aristocrats used to take blood-sports fans up to the pheasant moors or hills. Evidently it comes from a cart used at one time to break horses. No idea why we changed the spelling of "break" in the English version but it was possibly an alternate spelling in the past. Just off to the shops in my Saab shooting-brake. That should impress the neighbours.

[mint]

Incidentally, AR, if you do change your Saab break for one of those berlingo thingies, it's UN Berlingo.  I had it on good authority only a couple of days ago.

It came from the man who is redecorating our balcony rails.

In the last few days, I have added some bricolage vocab to my repertoire.  Une baguette is not something the artisan wants from the boulangerie, but a wooden fillet and white, pronounced the English way, is merely white spirit.

No one can accuse me of not learning![:D]

[Al Rogers]

[quote user="mint"]Incidentally, AR, if you do change your Saab break for one of those berlingo thingies, it's UN Berlingo.  I had it on good authority only a couple of days ago.

It came from the man who is redecorating our balcony rails.

In the last few days, I have added some bricolage vocab to my repertoire.  Une baguette is not something the artisan wants from the boulangerie, but a wooden fillet and white, pronounced the English way, is merely white spirit.

No one can accuse me of not learning![:D]

[/quote]

Thanks, Mint. Coincidentally, un Berlingo is quite high on my shopping list. My cousin recommends them, and your balcony could just have clinched the deal.

[woolybanana]

What is the female of 'rosbif', svp, 'rosbive' ?

[mint]

You could try roscow but I am not sure how that will sound in French.

[Patf]

I babble on a lot with french friends and when it comes to m or f I just slur over it and hope they think I suppose she can't pronounce our 'u'.

But in writing it's a lot more complicated because you can't mumble in writing and might have to get an adjective etc to agree.

I belong to a french gardening forum and always use the dictionary to check.

Are there any general rules about m and f? Maybe you've mentioned this on previous pages.

[mint]

As far as I'm concerned, Pat, it's all very arbitrary[:-))]

Otherwise, why would it be la guerre and l'armée, when it's mostly men who fight amongst themselves?

[Tancrède]

[quote user="Patf"]Are there any general rules about m and f?[/quote]If you mean regarding their genders, then these endings are both almost exclusively masculine, with very few significant exceptions :

la soif, la clef, la nef ;  and la faim.