Arc Welding - Should I attempt it?

[Pierre ZFP]

I need to make my garden gates quite a bit wider so I was going to 'cut n shut' (or cut and expand if you will) and weld in extra bits of 4mm mild steel with my arc welder.  Now I admit I'm not the greatest welder in the world but this is well within my skill range.  I have a modest arc welder, 230 volts in, max 140 amps which in the UK I would simply plug into an ordinary socket in the garage.  The UK plug has a 13 amp fuse.  So, if I change the plug to a French one, use the closest socket to the incoming supply and turn all other electrics off, is it a safe thing to do or must I be mad to contemplate it?  As an alternative I could braze the gates using the carbon arc 'Braze' setting which draws a lot less juice.

[Chancer]

I thought from the title that you had never welded before Pierre not that you thought the electricity might be different over the channel[:)]

Just go for it you wont have a problem, my 160 amp turbo welder still has a 3 pin plu and adaptor as it has to serve in both countries, i used it without problem to(re) rebuild my trailer after it snapped moving my tools including the welder.

Would you be asking the same question regarding a fan heater? Or perhaps you only have a 3KW supply in which case it would be prudent to switch off any electric heaters, not use an electric cooker etc at the same time.

Good luck and I am pleased not to have to try and explain leftward and rightward welding and arc striking!

[Gluestick]

Shouldn't be a problem, Pierre.

Don't forget to chamfer the cut ends and the new material at 45 degrees: and that with shielded arc, the heat will distort the existing metal, so only stitch a wee bit at the time.

Bit of a fag to keep chipping the slag off, but better than gates looking like something Salvador Dali knocked up one morning with a hangover!

I have yet to try my big 200 amp + turbo arc welder in France: I fear that the power factor will cause a sort of brown out in my neighbour's houses: I know that when the roofers were working over the road, each time they fired up their angle grinder to cut tiles, my lights died!

I could manage both horizontal and vertical, JR but never mastered overhead!

 

[Chancer]

I fabricated vertical silos amongst other things at one time, they were welded in the horizontal on powered rollers and because of the thickness had to be synchronise welded from both sides of the join at the same time.

Being the younger I usually drew the short straw and had to weld from the inside the slowly descending vertical seam whilst walking upwards (a bit like a reversed log roll) whilst trying to keep pace with the lead welder on the outside, I could only do it by lagging slightly and following the glow from his weld, the really good guys were perfectly synchronised and had ESP.

Even they were nothing on the guys who used to planish the welds (they would be annealed by torch by a 3rd person) as they had to hammer in the same (moving) spot and at the same time, ie both hammers striking the weld at the same time.

I often see people arc welding in France without any form of eye protection, not something I would do now with my damaged eyesight but I did once try it on site when I had forgotten my mask, the striking the arc was no different to a standard mask (you see bugger all) and the actually welding progressed more by feel and sound although there was a vague image of the arc through the eyelids, the finished article was very Dali!

[Gluestick]

I only ever had a mild case of "Arc Eyes", JR, from the ultra violet "bouncing" around a newly white emulsioned machine shop: and ten hours non-stop stick welding! Not nice: no apparent vision impairment but the awful feeling of grit deep in the eye.

I was fabricating all the steel benches for the garage: off to the pikey (those were the days) angle iron and 1/8th sheet.

Last time I went to a local metal re-processing yard (sounds much cooler than scrap dealer!) looking for mild steel, they looked at me as if I were mad.

Apparently now it's only ally, copper, brass etc.

In these easy days of plasma profile cutting and laser welding etc, it's easy to forget how amazingly skilled stick welders were and how so many large objects like your silos, were fabricated by a combination of sheer grunt and incredible (Underpaid) skill.

Edit. Damned silly auto censor!

The **** out word, was P 1 K E Y; what's wrong with that? That's slang for a scrap metal dealer.

 

[Pierre ZFP]

Thanks for the feedback guys.  I feel confident about trying it now.  After all, what's the worst that can happen?  trip out the whole village? [:D]

It's been a while since I welded and I've not done much anyway so I'll practise on some scrap before doing it for real.  Is it one of thse skills like falling off a bike? Once learned never forgotten? I hope so.  I've got some decent rods which I'm told make all the difference and will be overlapping the joints to try and avoid some warping but thanks for the reminder about stitching.  If all else fails, I have my angle grinder to tidy up the 'Drunken Dali' welds. [:$]

Can do horizontal (preferred) and vertical but never attempted overhead.  You never know, if this goes well I might be doing a lot more.  I like the idea of those fancy auto-darkening facemasks too!

 

[Gluestick]

You don't forget, Pierre. You become rusty, I think, about the angle of the filler rod to the work, which pattern of stitching to use and most of all, have a little trouble at first with striking the arc and maintaining the optimum distance from the work to maintain the arc and ensure full penetration without blowing holes or sputtering.

BTW, don't forget that it makes not much difference if you lap the work or butt it, in terms of heat distortion: it's the surrounding frame which is pre-tensed where it joins other bits that tends to "move".

 

[Rob Roy]

This discussion has brought back memories of more or less yearly trips taking my husband off to A & E to be treated for 'arc eye' - he was a panel beater in the days when cars were build properly and not just bolted together! [:)]

[tracteurtom]

[quote user="Rob Roy"]This discussion has brought back memories of more or less yearly trips taking my husband off to A & E to be treated for 'arc eye' - he was a panel beater in the days when cars were build properly and not just bolted together! [:)][/quote]

I think you'll find more welds in "todays" cars than bolts !

Pierre, dont forget to keep them rods dry, any damp and they are scrap.

[Gluestick]

Unless one is tackling special stuff - like pressure vessels -  a degree of dampness won't ruin shielded arc rods: stick (sorry no pun intended) 'em in the oven after cooking. Unless the flux is fluorescing badly (Covered in white powdery coating) or cracking all over, they will work for mild steel fabrication.

I was given a stack a few years ago and a light toasting sorted them out: after that, into a decent ziplok bag.

BTW my favourite mild steel rods were BOC Mirrorspeed: can't seem to find them these days.

 

[Chancer]

We used to store them in special ovens not just for ASME pressure vessel work but because they would strike up the arc better.

Sme of my rod stock is over 30 years old and are stored in a relatively damp workshop, I only pre-cook them if it is for important finish work or on exotic materials, for genral site work they are harder to strike up, dont work as well for the first 2 seconds but thee is no difference after that as the rod has cooked  itself dry.

GS - I think you mean Muraspeed, no? Or maybe I am getting confused with vinyl, - Muraspec, Muralon etc.

All my rods got mixed together and are a bit if a lucky dip now amongst the mild steel ones, every now and then I find a goody that must be muraspeed. My other good ones are printed E6013 I think from memory.

[Gluestick]

You could well be right, JR: it's over 30 years for me too!

I used to buy special rods from both Stubbs and Eutectic (Cold cast iron, with a "buttering" first rod of Monometal).

However for general purpose repairs and fabrication I did find the Muraspeed or Mirrorspeed rod the best, as the slag was self-peeling!

Happy days.

 

 

[Chancer]

Where finish is of utmost importance I use stainless steel rods (liberated while I was an apprenti) as the weld pool flows beautifully, the flux self peels and they are pi55 easy to use.

I would not want to buy them now though especially in France where "grossiste" just seems to mean selling large quantities/vollumes  of things at the same "unity" price!

Actually it might be usefull to learn the French phrase for a "self peeling slag"[6]

[Gluestick]

I think it is "Carla Bruni", Mate!

 

[terry]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

I think it is "Carla Bruni", Mate!

 

The first lady?

 

 

[/quote]

[Pierre ZFP]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

I think it is "Carla Bruni", Mate!

 

[/quote]

[:D][:D][:D] That made me actually laugh out loud - and I'm all by myself, think I must be cracking up!

Thanks for all the tips, I'll keep my rod dry [:$].  Should be OK as they are in a ziplock bag and I was told they had been in an oven for a bit beforehand.  As I understand it, it is easier to strike an arc with dry rods and I need all the help I can get.

Just to remind me, what is the optimal angle of the rod to the work please? I know I should know but like I said, its been a while.....

Also, what are the merits of MIG over stick? Is it easier/better or are these little MIG welders you see in Brico sheds not worth it?  Just interested in the experts view.

 

 

[Gluestick]

Glad you appreciated my funny, Pierre: couldn't resistit!

Stick Angle: from horizontal plane, between 30-40 degrees; or if you prefer, between 70 - 60 degrees from vertical. Also remember that the rod should be (looking from above),  angled forward in the direction your are welding. In other words not at a rigid 90 degrees to the weld seam, but "leading".

When you start a new stick, draw it across the surface of the work (or other "earthed" metal) to clean the metal end and promote the arc. To start the arc hold the rod near the work and as the arc forms withdraw it slightly to the correct welding position, remembering that of the rod is too far away then the arc sputters and you don not achieve full penetration: if too near, then you blow holes!

MIG (Metal Inert Gas) is mainly used for lighter work, such as fabrication in sheet metal shops and automotive bodywork, e.g.

The work stays much cooler therefore distortion from local heat is far less.

Because the weld is surrounded by an inert gas ( usually Argon, CO2, or Argon-CO2 mixed) the weld is far cleaner and even therefore there is less chance of included slag within the weld: plus, unless you are lucky enough to be using one of the new Carla Bruni Arc rods [:D], there is no slag to chip off, post welding.

Shielded Arc creates its own inert gas shroud, as the flux coating melts and gasses, since it is designed to be sacrificial. The unfortunate side effect is the cooled slag, which when included, creates weaknesses and pinholes as well as forming a sometimes brittle coat which needs removing.

Probably, the core difference is that the average small MIG has great difficulty in handling the thickness of metal you will be working with: entry-level sets have little adjustment (of power range and wire speed) and the gas in those small disposable bottles is horrendously expensive!

Luckily, whilst I do have a BOC contract still for Argonshield gas I also have a supply of pub type CO2 bottles which is all I use for non-demanding mild steel work.

With MIG, you would also have to keep filling and filling to obtain a reasonable weld fillet for your thickness, which would tend to overheat the weld, blow holes, overheat the tip shroud and etc. Just look at the thickness of the filler wire for MIG and the rod!

With practise and skill, it is totally possible to weld quite thing material with Shielded Arc. I once fabricated quite a few post sockets for a large body dozer from quite thick angle iron and 16 gauge sheet, all with arc.

Above all else, a beefy arc set is far quicker for thicker materials.

You can't beat grunt!

Loads of info on the web: http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/MIG_handbook/592mig7_1.htm

Hope it goes well.

 

[Chancer]

To rejoin the fray.

I cant see what there is to dislike about the presidents wife other than being pretty stunning and having taken off her clothes to further her career both of which I am sure he appreciates (I certainly do). She seems to have a very good relationship with the media and realises that it cuts both ways.

I would not group her with Paul McCartneys ex for instance.

Re welding: For many years I have had the choice of arc, mig and gas available to me (not in France though) when working in the workshop, generally I would always pick up the arc set first as it was quick and untemperamental, gas I would sue for finer work, brazing and bronzewelding race car chassis, the Mig hardly got used at all and was generally not worth the fuss. My choice was also influenced by no longer having an account for my gas and Mig cylinders.

For site work I always used arc for portability, I wanted to buy but could not justify the cost of a DC invertor "handbag welder. I finally got one on promo in France and am now loathe to use anything else, much easier to strike arc, rod rarely sticks and does not heat up if it does, much smoother controlled arc with better weld bead and far less spitting. My only regret is that I didnt buy a more powerfull one as I still need to use the old turbo set for 4mm rods. They are also getting cheaper and cheaper now.

Having followed my childhood instinct to take it apart even though it was working fine I can now see why they are so cheap and also that we were ripped off when they were relatively new, there is literally nothing inside them, no transformer windings just a reasonably sized ally heat sink for the switching semiconductor and a pcb smaller and with less components than a Tv remote.

[Gluestick]

I used to use gas a lot too JR: mainly for brazing and as yourself, Manganese Bronze for race cars, I also used to use a Stubbs SIlicon Bronze rod for such things as seam brazing saloon shells. Low temp melt and excellent flow and far cheaper than MB!

Gas I used too, for both cast and sheet ally.

On my wish list is a decent TIG outfit!

These days it's mainly MIG, as I mostly am repairing or fabbing sheet metal stuff, like a rather large BBQ I made two years ago for France!

I am toying with buying a small oxy-acetylene set for France, for various reasons, though still need to investigate alternative suppliers of bottles as Brico Depot, the cheapest regular "Shed" seem pricey.

The only objection I have for Ms Bruni is her bedhopping antics and marriage ruining hobby. Schlappers are hardly the stuff of presidential wives in my book......................

 

[Pierre ZFP]

Once again thanks for all the info and taking the time, much appreciated.  I have done a fair bit of brazing with a gas torch and found it very satisfying, and amazingly strong joints.  I remember from another forum that those small gas sets run for a disappointingly short time and as you say, the refills can be pricy.

I have done some forge welding, not so much black smithing as black arts.  Somewhere on my mental 'To-Do' list is having a go at making Damascus steel - how hard can it be? [Www]

[Gluestick]

Having adopted engineering early on in my life Pierre, I have always loved working with metal. I took to precision work like a duck to water.

Some years ago a dear friend, who had the distinction of winning the Open Pistols Championship (Antique Weapons) at Bisley three years on the trot, then became entranced with full bore black powder rifles.

He showed me one antique weapon (Damascus steel barrel) and then informed me that the old gunsmiths used to cut the rifling, by eye, using a cutting edge, held in a hickory rod!

And apparently, when the regularity of the rifling lands was checked using modern precision kit, the lands were accurate to thousands of an inch!

Cor!

Have a go at it! To male a barrel they apparently forged the different layers of steel around a black iron rod as a former.

Perhaps a broadsword or a simple Bowie knife might be a tad easier!

[:D]