Okay - Its Time - Your Advices Please

[UlsterRugby1999]

In a previous, and highly educational thread, we had been discussing air-air reversible inverter type units. Much excellent advice and sound common sense was offered and I, for one, have been converted to the system. So, now I'm ready to take the 16 stone plunge, but before I produce my own Tsunami I would be very grateful for you input before I go shopping.

Firstly, I have spent many hours on the web searching for units such as those which Quillan installed and which krusty (the research champion) sourced on the web and folks like Le Plombier with his knowledge. Brillaint input and much food for thought. So here's where I am.

Old (still draughty but reducing week by week) 2 storey cottage with larger barn attached and opened up into one large house. The barn ceiling is, of course, to the roof. At the moment we heat the entire house using 2/3 poele en bois one of which cracks out 18kw and has a recuperater linked into it. It works okay but this year we have bought 8 cord of wood. At 130€ a cord delivered that comes in at a cool 1040€.

I want to heat the barn and 4 medium sized bedroom (circa 15 - 18 m²). Using the BricoDepot catalogue as a guide, I'm considering the following units

http://www.bricodepot.fr/chateauroux/node/71812 - which would cover the barn (keeping the wood burner there as both an option and a top up if required)

http://www.bricodepot.fr/chateauroux/node/71820 - these are the cheaper Bi-Split models as opposed to the more expensive A rated DC Inverter model. My reasoning here is that the room sizes are approximately max 60% of the to quoted room sizes and, therefore, I am working on the basis that they wont be working as hard, therefore, they wont run as hard so they'll cost less to run. If this logic is wrong then its the more expensive http://www.bricodepot.fr/chateauroux/node/71824 - obviously the 2 big advantages with the more expensive units are the A rating and that they work down to -15C which, right now, would be beneficial.

So, in a large nutshell sorry, thats what I have been looking at. What are your considered views folks. Cheers.

 

[krusty]

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works , but have you followed this guys story , he post`s on tf.

http://pandjhowe.wordpress.com/

(the story starts on the last page)

[Le Plombier]

Krusty

I have said before and I will say it again, I would not buy anything from the Brico Depot, certainly not if I was installing it for a client

When clients purchase from them and ask me to install I walk away

UlsterRugby

Without getting technical, again, refrigeration equipment works best and is less problematic when it has to struggle to meet the demand for load

Large refrigeration machines are designed for 99/100% load and no spare capacity is added as would be the case for a heating boiler

The reason for this is that it is better for the compressor to run continuously for as long as possible which is what happens if it is working hard to meet the demand

If the compressor is oversized it will cycle on and off frequently which is not good for refrigeration plant

The situation is eased by the use of an invertor unit but it still best to accurately match the load to the demand

Ther is no substitue for quality equipment professionally installed and guaranteed, expensive to install but less problematic and possibly cheaper in the long run

Le Plombier

[UlsterRugby1999]

Mmmmmmmm -  thanks guys (guys is without gender by the way) - krusty you have got to feel really sorry for Mr Howe. Frustration wouldnt be in it. I'd be blattering doors down long before this even with my restricted French.

Le Plombier - as I said in my opening blurb, I was using the BricoDepot catalogue as a guide to demonstrate, I guess, where my thinking is/was going. I understand what you say and thanks for that. Is it possible to obtain a Bi-Split/MultiSplit unit that would properly cover 2 of the bedrooms at a time. As with all cases, money is the main driver but not to the point that I'd waste it either. I would not be keen on 5 separate units feeding the 5 rooms.

I've been looking all over the web for low(ish) cost units and they appear to be there its just matching it all up. If you see what I mean.

[Chancer]

Just my two pennys worth.

I have a bricodepot R407 gassed 2750 watt unit that is still giving 100% service after 2 summers and winters, I had no problems  installing it myself and would have no hesitation about buying another except the price of the later ones are significantly more than the €129 that I paid.

It has been in almost constant use in the last 2 weeks during the cold spell when the outside temperature has dropped below -10c some evenings, there has been no discernable loss of heating power at these low ambient temps although there are infrequent de-icing pauses.

To summarise I would say that from my experience the units work very well at below the rated minimum temperature, perhaps this has been artificially raised to encourage people to spend more on the invertor units?

[UlsterRugby1999]

Thanks J.R's gone native - in addition Quillan has installed 2 DC Inverter units himself which, if I'm correct, he bought from BricoDepot. Le Plombier's point is, as always, well made and well intended and the advice of a professional given freely should be logged in the Inbox. That said, I also appreciate that Le Plombier has both his reputation and future to protect and he is, of course, quite right to be ultra cautious.

My biggest driver is money so I need to keep all options open until I have exhausted them all.

krusty - going back to the Blogg - while there is, no doubt quite rightly, annoyance from Mr Howe, I wonder how tactfully he has approached the whole thing. I dont doubt he has cause for upset but maybe he has come across a wee bit too strongly, especially when we consider that it isnt the French way to complain. Backs up and all that. I say this because I have had cause to return a few items to BricoDepot and never had a single problem. One of the items was worth a few hundred Euros.

The alternative is to buy via the web and what recourse is there if anything goes wrong with such a unit bought via the internet. IT sure as Murphy aint easy is it [8-)][:(]

[nomoss]

Whatever you do, don't install any of those systems with pre-filled pipework and quick connectors. They all rely on a flexible "O" ring or similar for the seal. They all leak eventually. I have removed very many and replaced them with conventional flare or soldered connections. I refused to install any.

When (not if) they leak, air will eventually enter the system, leading to expensive repairs or compressor failure from mechanical damage or burnout. Compressors which fail with burnt windings should not be replaced without thorough cleaning of the system to remove acid and tar which is formed, which can be uneconomical with a domestic system.

Of course, with units now being so cheap, you might consider it economical to install it yourself and replace it when it quits. Not always convenient though.

Even if you mount the units and install the pipework yourself, get a decent refrigeration man to leak test, evacuate and fill the system for you. Purging air from the system with the gas supplied in it, as suggested in the instructions of some units, is rubbish.

 

 

[Chancer]

Nomoss

You have confirmed what I have long suspected about the dry-break type of couplings used on the new generation of units, I have a friend who works in the supplay and distribution of liquid gases, he has often told me how the only flexible hoses and O rings that have the molecular structure that will seal against and retain these new gases are so prohibitively expensive that they are only fitted to military equipment and in their processing equipment for H&S reasons. This is why car aircon units need refilling and more so with the new gases. 

I too shared your scepticism re the purging of my installation and as I had bought the unit so cheaply I was prepared to pay for it to be gassed properly however it did indeed work out OK and the unit is still working well a couple of years later, of course I dont know if I have the correct  weight/pressure of refrigerant but it does not appear to have leaked any measurable amount.

In my area the cost of regassing is several times what I paid for the unit.

[UlsterRugby1999]

nomoss - thank you for your post. I have spent the morning searching various web sites that I have found, and some that other members of this forum have sent links to me (cheers for that) and I must admit I'm getting trawl weary. There are various units from all over the world at prices varying from the affordable to the incredible.

Some of them are pre-gased, some have R407c gas while others have R410 (which has been mentioned on this Forum) some are Inverter type while many arent. I'm beginning to think its Guinness time [:D]. Seriously, its a minefield. Cost is the governing factor. The bedrooms are small and the barn is big. Is there help for me [:'(]

[nomoss]

J.R.

Vous avez raison.

Most, if not all, commercially available hose and seal materials (I'm not sure about Teflon, which has other disadvantages) are slightly porous to refrigeration gases, even more so to the newer ones, some of which operate at higher pressures than those now prohibited.

"Regassing" (a term I rather dislike) should involve finding and repairing the implied leak, often very time consuming, removing air and moisture which has entered the sytem, by evacuating it, often even more time consuming, and pressure testing before refilling.

I'm not convinced that these procedures are followed by all companies offering this service, especially for car airconditioning. The best equipment is rather expensive to buy and maintain, and the procedures demand skill, experience and often a lot of patience of the operators. There are also a lot of cowboys around with a bottle of gas and a set of gauges. They used to create a lot of work for us in the marinas.

Unfortunately I have found that quite a few people keep running systems after they are obviosly knackered, presumably in the hope that they will start working properly again, causing often irreparable damage. I have found many filled with the wrong, or a mixture of gases, and even one filled with butane. The boat's owner read somewhere that this would work. It did, after a fashion, but nearly caused a nasty accident in our workshop.

So one may be better off, with careful installation, and some good luck, buying budget priced systems, installing them carefully and replacing them periodically.

I installed two good quality systems in our house 6 years ago, but put a cheapie one from Weldom in my wife's studio 2 1/2 years ago.

All are still working OK, but I do have the advantage of having kept enough equipment when I sold my business to be able to repair them if necessary.

 

[UlsterRugby1999]

Ah Murphy - my head hurts. So much info. In my hours of research I see there are many different makes and manufacturers. Some have R410A or R407C gas. Many have compressors made by well known companies while others make their own. Some have CoP's down to 3.2 while others CLAIM 4 plus.

Does the gas matter? Is one better than the other? Sorry to drone on but it gets more confusing as I go on. [8-)][:(][8-)]

[Le Plombier]

UlsterRugby

If you need to supply five rooms you might find it better to install a multizone unit, although it would depend on your property layout as to whether it is practical

Basically it would comprise the external condenser and a single roof mounted cassette, from the cassette you would duct air to ceiling grilles in each of the rooms

A lot of the work you could do yourself, just employ someone to run the refrigerant lines and commission the system

Equipment cost 4 to 6k euros depending on what you finally select

A lot neater, less equipment to go wrong and possibly as cheap as multiple split units

A good heating merchant such as Cedeo or Cobatri should be able to help you, including design and recommend an installer and maintenance company for the fridge side

Makes little difference between R407 and R410 except the machine will be designed to run on one gas only as they have different pressure/enthalpy performances

A machine's COP varies according to temperatures and operationg conditions, honest suppliers quote the average, the others quote the best achievable

With air cooled condensers the COP is at it's lowest in extreme cold as performance drops right off at -7C

Le Plombier

[UlsterRugby1999]

Cheers Le Plombier - I'd looked at some of the milti units but the layout is one end of the house to the other and over quite a distance. I've seen a Tri Split LG unit for one end of the house and a Bi Split for the other end. Thats only 2 units and the price is pretty good too.

I appreciate your time and input here and promise never to mention the rugby when times are hard [;-)]

[BIG MAC]

Couple of these any good?

http://www.aircondiy.com/kfr51gw.shtml

[krusty]

[quote user="BIG MAC"]

Couple of these any good?

[/quote]

Why ? do you have them in France ?

[BIG MAC]

[quote user="krusty"][quote user="BIG MAC"]

Couple of these any good?

[/quote]

Why ? do you have them in France ?

[/quote]

I should imagine they would be available in France also as they are plug and play there is no need to worry about hard wiring simply change the plug top so taking across from UK may be possible.