Removing Millstones

[Chancer]

I recently had to remove the middle section of an IPN that spans my building along the long axis to run through a stairwell, whilst not as heavy as the millstones it wasnt far off with the concrete encasing it. 

After having (hopefully) done the necessary steelwork on the floors below to take the soon to be unsupported weight of the remainder of the IPN and the floor above it I took the weight on a chain hoist supported by two tretaux à maçon before attempting to cut through the concrete and steel.

The cutting was by far the hardest and most worrisome part,once the first cut was complete and the building hadnt fallen down the second took just as long but without the concern, lowering the section of beam was a piece of cake. I did all of this alone and unaided.

As for your job I would ascertain  the condition of the beams already supporting it against those over which you will have to deplace it, 1.25 tonnes is a relatively trivial weight to move if you use leverage (a barre à mines is best) and rollers, I have found the round MDF curtain poles to be most usefull.

Lowering the load is a piece of pi55 as you have gravity on your side, you wont need much in the way of support for the hoist, a couple of tretaux de maçons will be fine and the crossbeam need not even be steel if you keep the distance between the tretauxs to the minimum. Remember guys without RSJ's chain blocks etc got them up there against the force of gravity.

Just take your time, think it all through and dont allow yourself to be rushed, keep spans of lifting beams and the height above the load etc to the minimum. Spead the load under the tretauxs etc by resting them on planks running 90 degrees across a couple of floor joists, gradually take the weight of the load whilst keeping an eye on everything, if in doubt stop  and take time to think.

To put it in perspective the weight you are talking about is less than a BigBag of sand, I have a several piles of plasterboard on my second and 3rd floors that weigh 1200kg each.

[powerdesal]

Whats a 'tretaux à maçon' and a  'barre à mine ?

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

1.5 tonnes would not actually cause that much overload on properly braced standard thickness galvanised steel scaffolding.

All provided the structure is properly braced creating triangulation to prevent lateral movement of any frame you make.

The load would probably be comfortably handled by two horizontal tubes side by side, with braces at 90 degrees, as necessary: sat on floor plates screwed into the floor to prevent movement and the Acrows downstairs providing significant rigidity to the compromised structure.

For 1.5 tonnes an RSJ is really overkill.

 

[/quote]

I agree, but the OP mentioned an RSJ and using an RSJ gives more peace of mind if someone is not particularly au-fait with scaffold bracing and moving unweildy loads generally. 'Overkill' when rigging a lift is not generally a bad thing.

[Gluestick]

Ah I do agree about peace of mind a safety factors, Steve.

However, the core reason I suggested the scaffolding approach was:..........

How does he lift a robust RSJ to the first floor?

I know: hires a crane.......................

[Www]

Seriously, though, fabricated construction is much stronger than peeps realise: consider an egg.

In my main old garage workshop, the RSJs holding up the (light) roof, were all of the region of twelve inches in the web: and 10 inches across the flanges: and doubled very happily for hoist beams. And since the span was no more than 25 feet across (far longer down), when lifting say 1 ton (i.e. 20 Cwt), there was zero measurable deflection.

 

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

Seriously, though, fabricated construction is much stronger than peeps realise:

[/quote]

Forget the egg, think geodesic airframes.

[Gluestick]

And R101 and Neville Shute Norway.

I always, however, think of Jim Clark and his crash at Monaco in the first Lotus monocoque Type 49.

I remember Clark's tribute to its strength: "If I had been driving a spaceframe car I would now be dead!"

Totally agree however about Geodesic frames: loads taken out like fun all over the show and moments of inertia rendered unimportant.

 

[NickP]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

 

Also a smart ass, over confident and got an "A" level in Spanish.[:D]

[/quote]

Sounds like the Argentinian army in the Falklands  [:D]

[pachapapa]

[quote user="powerdesal"]Whats a 'tretaux à maçon' and a  'barre à mine ?[/quote]

trétau= trestle; maçon=type who throws bread and knows how old his granny is ; à= at, in the manner of, etc preposition meaning varies with context. Mr Bricolage have lighter trestles used for cutting and pasting wall paper, these are not recommended for moving mill-stones.

barre= bar ; à= see above ; mine= mine. Known in anglo-saxon mining circles as pinchbar but africans in Southern Africa call it an mgwala.

French pinchbars are of good quality I can move most anything up to 2 tonnes; a while back an idiot overturned a 206 trying to impress his bird on the main road close by; my pinchbar had the door off with no trouble at all.

[Chancer]

Un tréteau à maçon = a builders trestle or also known as a bandstand, used with scaffold boards or whatever you have to hand to create a working platform up to about 2.2 metres high if you use the French ones.

Une barre à mine, a bit more difficult this one as I dont really know the name in English despite having bought mine in England 15 years ago. I called it a breaker bar but that is more of a mechanics tool, this is a 2 metre long solid steel bar with a tempere point at one end and a lever heel at the other, used for breaking up concrete around fence/gate posts (only last week for me) and also for debt recovery but that was a long time ago. when sharpened it can pass through a car door and interior trim with ease.

I have lifted very very heavy objects with mine little by little progressively putting wedges/bricks/blocks under each side, as my late dad said "you can move the world with a lever.

With the barre à mines and some MDF curtain poles I single handedly removed a 5000 litre fuel storage tank that was made of 6mm thick steel off of its platform down and across unsurfaced ground. The buyer picked it up with a Manitou yet it seemed to struggle.

[Chancer]

Didnt see your posting PP, now I know the english and African name.

I used to know but have forgotten the name for the sharpened up bicycle spoke favored by the guys returning to the homelands on the train, can you remind me?

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Chancer"]

Didnt see your posting PP, now I know the english and African name.

I used to know but have forgotten the name for the sharpened up bicycle spoke favored by the guys returning to the homelands on the train, can you remind me?

[/quote]

The pinchbar is used as a sounding bar for checking the hanging and sidewall of an excavation; the sound if the rock is not solid is very distinctive; the bar is then used for prying off loose rock to make the working place safe. The sharpened spoke, I dont know what it is called, will search and enquire from South african friends; best I can do is to paste a quote from Anton Fugard. The spoke was often stuck in the stomach as well causing very acute peritonitis.

In my years as a medical student I saw their victims delivered to us with the neatest of wounds. We learned to inspect the collapsed patient for the almost invisible puncture in the armpit from a sharpened bicycle spoke, slipped between the ribs into the heart to cause a tamponade: a squirt of blood into the pericardial sac that as it filled, pressed on the heart, strangling it in its own labour.

[Salty Sam]

[quote]In my years as a medical student I saw their victims delivered to us with the neatest of wounds.[/quote]

Was this for your St John or Red Cross first aid certificate ?

Goodness me, is there no end to this man's talents ?

Pray tell us more [Www]

[mint]

SS, Pacha was quoting whatisname about the wound cased by thingummyjig.

As you see, retentive memory isn't what it used to be....excusez moi!

[Gluestick]

Personally, I'm getting a wee bit fatigued by member's sniping: more so than ever with this area, since members freely give their knowledge and advice with one objective only: to try and assist other members.

Take issue with others on point or points of fact by all means: but do it nicely, politely and with the required level of etiquette, please.

If you wanna argue about something pointlessly: then go find a thread about bloody football!

[:D]

 

[Chancer]

My thoughts exactly.

Less of the personal attacks please Salty Sam.

PP wasnt showing of his considerable knowledge he was replying to a question that I posed him, I did so because I thought he may know the answer, he said he didnt, would ask soemone who did and quoted someone else who had some knowledge.

For that I am grateful, why on earth should it get your back up?

People whos postings I really enjoyed have stopped contributing to this forum because of repeated comments like yours. More often than not those with the most knowledge or experience to share.

[NickP]

Gluestick wrote:

Personally, I'm getting a wee bit fatigued by member's sniping: more so than ever with this area

Probably because of your humourless outlook Gluey, [:D] but  I think you are getting a bit paranoid about  "sniping", because although my memory is getting a bit dodgy these days thats  the umpteenth time you've mentioned it lately. By the way; as for knowledge and advice I liked your storey about baking Hovis, [Www] it will very useful to keep that in mind the next time any of us is lowering something very heavy down from a high building. Must go, as the fish are biting and I've got lots of bait to get rid of before the football starts this evening, who do you think is going to win Gluey, Spain or Germany?

[Gluestick]

Amazing!

As a response to a well intentioned comment aimed at benefiting forum members in general, then here we go again.

I've never baked nor never would bake Hovis: I bake real bread the old fashioned way, using carefully selected stone ground organic flours.

Hovis is fundamentally for muppets who believe they are getting real wholemeal when in point of fact they are not.

How comes you target this brandname, Nick?

[Www]

"Humourless outlook"? Another crass assumption: might interest you to know I write humour amongst other topics.

Wouldn't appeal to football fans though in all probability: far too intellectual. I don't think David Beckham has been the cover model for Private Eye.

Couldn't hazard a guess on the result you are seeking: one side or the other I would suppose.

As if it really mattered in the overall scheme of things..................

 

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

 I don't think David Beckham has been the cover model for Private Eye.

 

[/quote]As it happens....

http://www.private-eye.co.uk/covers.php?showme=1176

Sorry, Gluey, honest.

I must say that being rather girlie that if I were the op I'd still be inclined to get a bit of expert help on site as his building does sound a bit dodgy.  Is it a macho thing to have to try something even if it's potentially dangerous?  I get the pride in acheivement thing but surely a bit of advice from somebody who can actually see the site isn't "silly old 'elf and safety" but just common sense?  You wouldn't let a learner driver borrow your Ferrari and take it for a spin would you?  So why would anybody with no engineering background move something that  hefty on the advice of some (albeit experienced) chaps on a forum?  What if Jehe's whole home falls down as a result, or he's crushed by some fallen masonary or a beam which snaps?

[powerdesal]

Coops,

The OP asked for info / advice, it was freely given. It does not mean he has to take it. The responsibility for any actions he takes are solely his. If, having read the ideas, he feels confident in doing the job in accordance with his own level of risk acceptance then so be it. If he does not have that confidence then I am sure he will take other professional advice

 

Its always accepted that forum technical advice is given without guarantee and is 'caveat emptor' (I think thats the correct phrase, no doubt some legal eagle will correct me)

[cooperlola]

I know that Steve and I do get it, really!  However, it's a serious question.  There's a certain sort of chap who will take risks so that he can always do a thing himself, whilst others wouldn't touch even an electric plug with a barge-pole.

Reading some of the posts on here it seems that a few of our regular posters who are sensible, thoughtful chaps, will do all sorts of dangerous stuff regardless.   I'm sure Jehe will judge for himself as you say, but some of the advice seems downright reckless to me, from people whom I wouldn't have thought to be so (and some I would![:D])  What makes some chaps like this and some not?

EDIT : Appologies Jehe, this banter isn't going to move your millstone is it?  I will consider this further and maybe post on a more broad-based board.

[Hoddy]

I've moved this post to the new thread.

Hoddy

[cooperlola]

In deference to Jehe, Hoddy, I've started another thread:

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/2169774/ShowPost.aspx

[Salty Sam]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

SS, Pacha was quoting whatisname about the wound cased by thingummyjig.

As you see, retentive memory isn't what it used to be....excusez moi!

[/quote]

Aye sweet17, but it would be nice if the actual quote had been highlighted as such.[:D]

[Salty Sam]

[quote user="Chancer"]

My thoughts exactly.

Less of the personal attacks please Salty Sam.

PP wasnt showing of his considerable knowledge he was replying to a question that I posed him, I did so because I thought he may know the answer, he said he didnt, would ask soemone who did and quoted someone else who had some knowledge.

For that I am grateful, why on earth should it get your back up?[/quote]

Sharpened bicycle spokes in South Africa and millstone removal ? There must be a tie up somewhere but probably not !

[quote user="Chancer"]

People whos postings I really enjoyed have stopped contributing to this forum because of repeated comments like yours. More often than not those with the most knowledge or experience to share.

[/quote]

Or, do they just give way to those who profess to have the knowledge and always want the last word ?

Anyone can Google ! It's just some are better than others and of course the secret nature of the www allows people to adopt any guise they wish, and ensure a following of faithful fans.

 

[Chancer]

You have my sympathy Salty Sam.