CPAM cotisations

[Bastet]

Has anyone successfully disputed the amount of cotisations determined by CPAM? 

Long story short, last year after taking incorrect advice and declaring just our fiscal reference number to CPAM, they sent round a chap who appeared sans rendez-vous demanding to know how we were managing to live on such a meager amount.  When confessing that we had income tax-free interest from (French) savings accounts that we thought were not relevant, he went through all the statements and came up with a total figure to which I agreed.   On re-examining the statements later on, I decided he had made a significant error. 

This was then put in the hands of accountants, (last october/nov) on their invitation, when Mr Bastet & I went to check them out for his iminent business.  Since then we have heard nothing helpful. They initially kept saying they were waiting for CPAM to return their calls, then that they would write. I've chased them again this morning, having had actual bills from URSSAF for two trimestres to be paid by two weeks time, but the guy is out, naturally.

I feel it's time to try to take matters into my own hands now, so would like to know if anyone has had experience of sorting out a similar situation. I have a couple of french friends I could rope in if necessary to correct a letter or maybe even come with me to a meeting - my french is Ok for daily living but not up to dealing with difficult beaurocracy.  My understanding is that this chap came from a department of CPAM with which it is difficult to make contact; if possible, I'd just like a pointer in the right direction.  I know there's a conciliator service but on looking at the website I get the feeling this is just for the medical aspects.

I would like to emphasise that we are NOT trying to avoid paying our way; just to ensure we don't pay more than we are really liable for.

[Teamedup]

Sounds like you are going to have to write to them and ask to be reassessed. Give them all the details again and full copies of all your income and bank statements and good luck.

The URSSAF, well my friend who works in a pay dept reckons that they are like gangsters, the mafia, or some such thing and intransigeant. I hope that they are not as we have some things to sort out with them.

[Sunday Driver]

Your accountants are clearly a waste of time.  You really do need to use the concilliation/appeals process.  It's is nothing to do with medical aspects - CPAM deals with the financial/insurance side of things (cotisations, reimbursements etc). You may have run out of time, but it's worth you having a go.

Start by formally writing to the Commisson de recours amiable at your CPAM address.  Your letter formalises your complaint and starts the clock on the strict timescales within which they are required to respond. They will review your dossier and determine whether your cotisations have been correctly calculated in accordance with the statutory procedures.  They have one month in which to advise you of their decision.

You will find full details of the process, together with a sample complaint letter [url=http://www.ameli.fr/assures/droits-et-demarches/reclamations-et-voies-de-recours/comment-contester-une-decision/les-differentes-voies-de-recours-aff_deux-sevres.php]HERE[/url].

The URSSAF are just the hit-men who collect the cash.  If your CPAM recalculate your cotisations, they'll advise URSSAF of the new figures.

 

 

 

[Teamedup]

[:D] LOL LOL I will have to tell my friend that you called them 'hit-men'. The thing is that they have a say too in what is being collected, so they aren't just money collectors, it is all just a bit more than that.

I have called Paris about a problem I have, but will have to write to them so that I have it officially to argue the toss with our local URSSAF, who at the moment have said, that they have decided and their word is 'law'.

[Bastet]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

You will find full details of the process, together with a sample complaint letter [url=http://www.ameli.fr/assures/droits-et-demarches/reclamations-et-voies-de-recours/comment-contester-une-decision/les-differentes-voies-de-recours-aff_deux-sevres.php]HERE[/url].[/quote]

Thanks SD; I obviously hadn't examined this option too closely...could you point me to the letter please? I can't seem to find it. Sorry to be so dim......thanks to Teamedup too; I might prepare everything as above and take it all in to Niort myself, to cover all bases.  I just hope I'm not too late.

Yes, the accountants are disappointing, to say the least. They were recommended, plus they had the extra bonus of an English speaking assistant - who left a month after we started the saga and has not yet been replaced. Communication is a bit of a problem but if they can manage the OH's work accounts efficiently, they'll be forgiven.

[Sunday Driver]

Don't take anything to Niort - you are not dealing with CPAM any more, but with the official concilliator.  You need to send your complaint to him/her by lettre recommande with accuse de reception so that it enters the complaints system by the official route.  That way, its progress will be monitored and controlled.

Here's the link to the [url=http://www.ameli.fr/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/lettre-type-conciliateur.rtf]sample complaint letter[/url]. 

It's not very detailed, but it's a good starter. The secret of success is to keep it simple (bullet points, etc) and don't introduce irrelevancies which won't affect the outcome - in other words, don't complain about the attitude of the bloke who came to see you.  Just the facts, Ma'am!!   Don't forget to attach any relevant documents.

 

 

 

[Owen]

Hello Bastet,

The best of luck with your appeal.

What you should not do is apologize for just declaring your "revenu fiscal de referecne" (RFR). That is the basic requirement and with a copy of your "avis d'impot" accompanying your income declaration you did exactly what was required of you.

The CPAM, as you have found out, can investigate further but there was no obligation on your part, at the time, to declare any more than the RFR.

Regards

Owen

[email protected]

[Bastet]

Thanks again. 

Do you know if 'they' take into account anything from Previ-Options or Previ-Retraite accounts?   I don't think we get any interest from them but I guess I should send them all the details anyway..

[Le Petomane]

My payment to URSSAF arrived one day late, and they sent me a letter saying that next time they would fine me, but as it was my "first offence" I could consider my bottom smacked. I now drive 30k and hand it over myself. Just to warn you that they take no prisoners.

[Owen]

Hello Bastet,

"Do you know if 'they' take into account anything from Previ-Options or Previ-Retraite accounts?   I don't think we get any interest from them but I guess I should send them all the details anyway"

It is difficult to forecast what they are going to take into account. Certainly if you are receiving interest then you must declare it but if you are not then I think to simply mention you have such accounts is the correct way to proceed. if they want further details they will ask.

But you do need to really try and stay calm about this. The fact that you received an unannounced visit suggests you are dealing with a pretty vindictive lot. Depending on your level of French (and stamina!) you may be able to use the sclerotic bureaucracy to delay any final payment. But once any figures are sent to URSSAF then you are cooked because it will be then too late for any appeals.

Regards

Owen

[email protected]

[Bastet]

So you're saying that there is no chance of getting them to review the cotisations,  for which the CMU have very obviously made a mistake, once we've received the URSSAF bills?  That seems pretty inflexible, even for France. I stated in my first posting that we've just received the bills for two trimestres, both to be paid by the end of the month. I know we will have to do that but I was hoping they could later adjust the total liability for the year, if they accept the correct figures.

(I have double checked the previ accounts and they both seem to be classified as insurances and I'm pretty certain we've never had any interest.)

[Owen]

Hello Bastet,

No I am not saying that. CPAM can review the cotisations but one of the main tasks of URSSAF is to act as debt collector for the French state and there is no point in making representations to URSSAF to review your payments - only CPAM can do that.

Regards

Owen

[email protected]

[Sunday Driver]

Bastet

Don't overcomplicate things for yourself.

Dont involve URSSAF - they're nothing to do with your case.

You will be dealing solely with the concilliator, and when he reviews your case, he will look at what your CPAM took into account at the time of your original application (ie, what you originally declared plus the information your visitor took away with him). 

If you didn't mention your insurances at the time, then they aren't part of the original potential CPAM miscalculation.  That's what he'll be reviewing.

 

[Bastet]

Sorry, I don't know how the wires have crossed; I realise URSSAF are the collection agency; I always intended to deal with CMU/CPAM, if anyone.   I thought Owen was saying that once the bills had been issued by URSSAF, there was no right to appeal.   I am encouraged by all your help and advice and will re-post with any news in the future. 

Thanks.