Local tax and number of bedrooms

[JandM]

Another local tax query for those who knows about these things, from someone who should have researched this a long time ago...

We bought our house some years back as a three bedroom property - two in the roof and one on the ground floor next to the kitchen. As there was just a chipboard cupboard built into the doorway between the kitchen and downstairs bedroom, we quickly decided to turn it back into a dining room, so now the house has just two, quite small, bedrooms in the roof.

It's recently occurred to me that the number of bedrooms might be a criterion for calculating local taxes, so I might have been paying out for a three bedroom house all these years (about eight) when I should have been paying for a two bedder. I know amounts vary hugely from area to area, and it's more expensive in France, but the commune and canton are very rural, yet the combined taxes come to about EURO 1300 a year, which is actually more than I pay in Council Tax for a three bed terrace in Lewisham. 

I bet it's not as simple as I think, but I'd be grateful for any comments or ideas.

Thanks

[pachapapa]

In principal there would appear to be no change in area on the ground floor.

Whether you have 2 or 3 bedrooms is not relevant.

If the first floor has been changed from a loft at some stage the area may have been not adjusted by a factor of 0.5.

In any event you have the right to obtain a copy of the Formulaire 6675 work sheet used by the centre des impôts to calculate the area from the information provided on the formulaire H 1 and thus obtain the VLC for the property.

[idun]

Our french home had an open plan sitting room/dining area and yet on our plans they were two designated areas. We could have easily put a wall up and door in to make them into two really separate rooms, but didn't. How this affected our local tax bills I don't know, but it seemed fair enough to me.

[pachapapa]

The H1 form records the number of rooms, so the open plan designated area would be two rooms.

A PIÈCES ET ANNEXES AFFECTÉES EXCLUSIVEMENT À L’HABITATION

1. SALLE À MANGER, PIÈCES DE RÉCEPTION DIVERSES :

salle commune, salle de séjour, salon, bibliothèque, etc. . . . . . . .

2. CHAMBRES ET AUTRES PIÈCES HABITABLES . . . . . . . . . . . . .

3. CUISINES. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • de moins de 9 m2 . . . . . . . . . .

• de 9 m2 et plus. . . . . . . . . . . . .

4. SALLES D’EAU : salle de bains, salle de douches, cabinet de toilette

avec eau courante . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

5. AUTRES ANNEXES : entrée, couloirs, antichambre, office, rangement,

etc. À L’EXCLUSION DES ÉLÉMENTS VISÉS AU § C . . .

6. SURFACE TOTALE DES PIÈCES ET ANNEXES

.......................m2 AFFECTÉES EXCLUSIVEMENT À L’HABITATION

The total area in each category is recorded and the number of rooms in that category, whilst the area is used for calculating the VLC, the number of rooms is not taken into account. The fact that the "foncs" are making you enter information that is not used should not surprise anyone who has had exposure to the abject stupidity of french bureaucracy.

Who knows perhaps sarko the evil dwarf is planning to surcharge a compulsory levy on people with excessive rooms to contribute to the french budget deficit.

Hey there did you see the french foreign trade deficit for 2011.[:D][:D][:D]

[idun]

PPP:Yes, I did see the trade deficit for 2011. [:(] Can't smile all our income is from France. [:-))]

To the OP, I cannot see it being wrong really, but you can always go and ask.

[JandM]

Thanks for the replies. There's been no change to the floor area so, if number of bedrooms is not a factor,  I'm not going to get a rebate.  At least I know now.

[idun]

Our local tax in the UK is similar to that of our french house. What has surprised me is that yours is dearer in France than in London, I really did not expect to read that.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="JandM"]Thanks for the replies. There's been no change to the floor area so, if number of bedrooms is not a factor,  I'm not going to get a rebate.  At least I know now.[/quote]

But you have not addressed the question of the first floor with the two small bedrooms "in the roof"; this suggests to me a loft conversion with sloping ceiling formed by the inclination of the roof.

Small point the factor for correction is now 0.6 and not 0.5 when I last did an H1 procedure at the Centre des Impôts.

Whilst a reduction of 40% to a roof space may seem to be inconsequential it should be remembered that only a few square metres extra will push the potential occupants of the property upwards.

The VLC ( valeur locative cadastrale ) in principle the local rental value of the property will be significantly different for more bums on seats.

Nothing to do with number of bedrooms; in the context of a traditional incestuous life style in the Massif Central or Picardie.[:P]

[BIG MAC]

How does one check the potential letting value already being applied? it hadn't occured to me that the Commune may think our house a massively attractive rental proposition (Which it isn't) but applied an arbitrary figure nonetheless

[pachapapa]

 LIn simple tInes huit catégories de locaux d'habitation et les locaux de référence

 

In simple terms each commune will have residences of reference to a maximum of 8 categories from 1) Grand Luxe down to 8) Très mediocre. Your residence will be classed in one of these categories, the rental value will be assessed on the residence de base for that category and then adjusted according to the area: it is in fact a lot more complicated but that is the general principle. Of course not every commune will actually have all 8 categories.

 

Les locaux d’habitation sont répartis en huit catégories, selon l’architecture du local, la qualité de la construction, la distribution du local et les équipements.

 

Vous trouverez sur le site, dans le chapitre « Outils » et la section "Formulaires" le « Tableau de classification des locaux à usage d’habitation et locaux professionnels ordinaire» ressortant de l’article 324 H de l’annexe III du CGI, avec la description des huit catégories : de la catégorie 1 (grand luxe) à la catégorie 8 (très médiocre).

 

Il faudra savoir quelle catégorie a été retenue pour le local dont vous êtes propriétaire, ce qui oblige à demander à l’administration fiscale d’une part la fiche de calcul de votre local (n° 6675), et d’autre part une copie de l’extrait du PV des locaux de référence de la Commune détaillant les caractéristiques du local de comparaison.

 

La fiche « Votre démarche en 10 étapes » indiquée sur la page d’accueil du site de l’Atelier des taxes locales vous guidera dans la recherche de ces différents documents.

 

N’hésitez pas à prendre des photographies du local de référence et de votre local : les différences entre le local de référence et votre local doivent être pointées, surtout celles en défaveur de votre local (taille du local, quartier, aménagements, état d’entretien, …).

 

Si les différences vous paraissent évidentes entre votre local et le local de référence, si la catégorie retenue par l’administration fiscale pour votre local paraît inadaptée, si une caractéristique en défaveur de votre local n’a pas été retenue, il vous faut établir une réclamation contentieuse puis l'adresser au Centre des impôts foncier dont dépend votre immeuble (l’adresse est sur votre avis d’imposition à la taxe foncière qu'il faudra joindre).

 

La réclamation contentieuse obéit à des conditions de formes et de délais qui sont exposées dans le présent site, sur la page d’accueil, dans la rubrique « Une démarche ».

 

Extract from the site that I use for detailed consideration of matters on local taxation.

http://www.atelier-taxeslocales.fr/index.html

 

If your french is good then you can plough through the site details at leisure, the site is put up by a cabinet of advocats who specialise in such matters.