Carol Thatcher and the G word.

[Cerise]

Are you all middle class and white?   I'm white myself but my husband is not and you know, middle class white people get far more upset at the use of the word 'Paki' than he ever does!  Most people, of any ethnic origin, know the difference between a word used thoughtlessly and one used unkindly.  Racism and prejudice can be inherent in any words.  I am reminded of a quote from the book 'The Curious Incident of the Dog in The Night-time" where the main character, a boy with Asperger's syndrome says "They are not allowed to call us retards so now they just shout out 'Special needs'"   If a speech is not meant to be hurtful, prejudiced or unkind then the words used often depend on the age and upbringing of the person making the speech - I don't for a minute believe that most people spend their life considering whether their words are 'correct' or not. 

Political correctness will never mask real prejudice.  The words 'What do his sort eat for dinner?' offend me far more than an outspoken 'Your husband's a Paki, isn't he?'.

[NormanH]

[quote user="David"]

I also wonder how much of this is because of what I perceive as a strong BBC anti Margaret Thatcher bias.

David

[/quote]

If this were the case would they have been employing her daughter in the first place?

[NormanH]

[quote user="Cerise"]

I don't for a minute believe that most people spend their life considering whether their words are 'correct' or not. 

.

[/quote]

I agree.

But Carol Thatcher isn't 'most people.' Even if spoken in private, it was said by someone with a job which is highly exposed to the public, and so someone from whom should be able to expect a greater sensitivity to  language than most.

[Weedon]

As I understand it, she used the word to describe a persons hair.  Those of us who have grown up with the word might also use it to do just that without meaning to be offensive.

Some years ago I used to work in a place where I was one of only a few white skinned people and it was normal to call West Indians coloured, if you had to refer to the colour of their skin, so as not to cause offence.  Nowadays, I understand, it is considered offensive to do so and you must use the word black. 

Gordon Ramsey's overuse of the F word has clearly been a strategy adopted by the producers of his show.  Wouldn't it be amusing if he was made to use the word bonk instead.  The intention is the same but one is humorous and the other....not.

[Hoddy]

"As I understand it, she used the word to describe a persons hair."

Which is why I wouldn't presume to know what was in her mind. According to at least one radio report I've heard this morning the tennis player was Andy Murray.

Hoddy

[Théière]

We, the people of La Guerche are called Guerchois or Guerchoises

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Guerche

I am happy with that [:D]

I live not far from the site of the old Golliwog factory in Lewisham, it was the same place that used to make those "thimbles of the world"

And if you know anything about the population of Lewisham a large number were not indigenous.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="NormanH"]

I agree.

But Carol Thatcher isn't 'most people.' Even if spoken in private, it was said by someone with a job which is highly exposed to the public, and so someone from whom should be able to expect a greater sensitivity to  language than most.

[/quote]

A bit like Jonathan Ross and Russell Brand then who I understand still work for the Beeb although what the useless pair of plonkers do is beyond me.

[Théière]

Lucky it wasn't the Williams sisters, would'nt want to call either one of them a name [;-)]

[peter@pons]

according to the OED the derivation of the word is very interesting _ it's a mixture of golly (a euphemism for God) and polliwog meaning tadpole.

Just how offensive can one be?

let's all just get a life.

 

Peter

 

[AnOther]

What chance of a Black & White Minstrels revival [Www]

[Hoddy]

Maybe Adrian Chiles has no sense of history. When the Black and White Minstrel Show began, sexual infidelity was the subject of criticism by the puritans.

Hoddy

[Russethouse]

[:)][:)] Yes and he'd probably have been sacked by now.......

Didn't she also mention the Robertson trade mark ? A much loved character

[Gastines]

My wife's family traced back to 1804 so far, lived in Plouec sur Lie, when telling our French neighbours about our searches at the Archives in St.Brieuc, the daughter who teaches French in England explained that the French version for Country Bumpkins  is Plouec's. Should we now take offence at this ?

Regards.

[Mystery tramp]

[quote user="Hoddy"]I wouldn't presume to know what was in Carol Thatcher's mind.

For my own part I used to have one of these cuddly toys when I was a child. I loved him, quite literally, to bits. I now understand that the word has been used in a derogatory way and have excluded it from my vocabulary. If I used it by accident, it would certainly not be meant in any derogatory fashion.

To sack her when Jonathan Ross was only suspended tells us something about the BBC's priorities. He makes them a lot of money; Carol Thatcher doesn't.

I used not to mind the F word, but now I'm suffering from a surfeit of it and can no longer watch people like Gordon Ramsey.

Funny old world eh ?

Hoddy[/quote]

Isn't that what Thatcherism was all about?

[Furry Knickers]

 How can anyone comment unless they are black themselves? How does a white person know if it's offensive (or not) to black people? If anyone called me a gollywog, I would not like it! A black forum users view would be of more interest. Are there any derogatory names for whites? I don't know any meself[:(]

[NormanH]

There is an interesting page on Wikipedia about the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis

The hypothesis postulates that a particular language's nature influences the habitual thought of its speakers.

It's not entirely the same thing but it has a bearing on what I was trying to express.

[cooperlola]

Therein lies the rub, Mr Knickers.  Being white and middle class myself, I am in no position to know what it's like to be on the rough end of a racist epithet.  Thus it seems to me that, should somebody consider a certain term to be offensive (which personally I belive the G word probably is), then best not to use it.  What is wrong with attempting to avoid upsetting others?  I accept that not every black person would object to being called by this name, but if just one is likely to be hurt by it, then why would one want to risk upsetting them?  "Celebrities" and those in positions of influence should know when their words can offend and learn when to keep their gobs shut. It's part of the price they have to pay for being in the public eye.

I swear like a trooper myself, but I hope I know when I'm with people who might find my language offensive and I thus don't use it in the company of those I don't know too well, or whom I know are upset by it. It's not that difficult.

[tegwini]

Golly soft toys are  greatly loved,  extremely popular, collectible and some very valuable.  

They have been made for over a hundred years,  and were originally based on a circus character. They are Teddy's best friend.  In the UK they are made by Merrythought, Deans and a few smaller manufacters.  Steiff also make them, in their limited edition ranges, and call them 'gollywogs', most other manufacturers call them gollies.  Other German teddy manufacturers usually call them gollies. Such is their popularity that they are copied in the far east, exported from NZealand, Australia, USA and etc. 

There are  many, many thousands around the UK in collections and toyboxes.  Decades ago my sister had an 'upside-down doll' - black doll at one end/white doll the other. She also had a golly.   Doubtless Carol Thatcher had one as a child. That might explain why she used the word, and I don't believe she meant to be offensive.  

For me,   the entire debacle sounds like PC gone mad, and says lots about Adrian Chiles.  Sounds like something from a school playground!

I find the constant use of obscene language and gratuitous violence much worse,   and often it is hard to find a programme that sticks to the BBC's original charter.

Tegwini

edit: correction- sister's toys...

[Furry Knickers]

Why is is that white dolls are always made in the image of beautiful humans and black dolls are always hideous characatures???? I've never seen a black person that looks like a golliwog, have you?

[Hoddy]

There is nothing wrong with attempting to avoid upsetting others. I just wonder if such drastic action is warranted if someone makes a mistake. As someone who was born blond, the mother of a natural blond daughter and three blond grand daughters, I do bristle at the jokes and I have been subjected to racism in both in Britain and the USA.

I'm not justifying Carol Thatcher's use of the word, I'm just suggesting that sacking her is a bit over the top.

I feel a bit weird defending Carol Thatcher because I don't like her.

Hoddy

[Furry Knickers]

It's nothing to do with "political correctness" or class, it's everything to do with hate, vileness and ignorance. People like that even think other white people have the same views as them.

[cooperlola]

Funnily enough, Hoddy, I do think "blonde" jokes are offensive.  Not least because they are rarely used with regard to blokes so are sexist as well as hairist. 

Yes, I suspect it was an over-reaction, but I still believe it's a word we should avoid using, in the way in which she apparently did (ie to compare a human being to one.)  I wouldn't know how else to describe the character on the Robsinson's jars - but I'd certainly never imply that anybody reminded me of them.  Like Mr Knickers, I have never seen any resemblence.  But I do remember that the Noddy books weren't allowed in our house because the little chaps were portrated as villains and ne'er do wells.  Seemed fair enough to me when I was a kid and it still does.  PC?  You betcha.

Edit: I prefer to think of PC as standing for Polite and Considerate, Furry!

[just john]

[quote user="Russethouse"]I think Adrian Chiles saw an opportunity to get rid of Carol Thatcher and took it, it says more about him than it does about her....[Www][/quote]

Absoflippinglutely RH, what a slimy horny hypocritical toad he is,  -adrian-chiles-chemistry-with-christine-bleakley.
surely everybody must know poor old Carol is harmless by comparison, when will all this inconsequential PC nonsense rebound. Wasn't the comment about someones hair compared with a doll? Hopefully the old saying 'what goes around comes around and he'll get his.'
never did like the 'dumb' one show anyway, neither is Jo Brand funny anymore [8-|]

 

[tegwini]

Soon we'll have the thought police - Big Brother is Watching You- as in 1984.

So many ways of supposedly being offensive.     Even thinking  'roast beef' is an insult.   This originated  during the 19th century when the British supposedly were better fed than the French- thus a compliment  ?

We should always show consideration, but it's gone too far and is now costing the UK taxpayer over £600 million.  No doubt the BBC has such a dept. for the likes of Adrian Chiles to tell tales to.  More cost to the licence payer, and to what benefit ?

Very little benefit.

Tegwini

 

 

[tegwini]

"Why is is that white dolls are always made in the image of beautiful humans and black dolls are always hideous characatures???? "

 

Not so Cythia.  Lots of pretty black dolls - always have been. The golly was never really a 'doll'.

Regards

Tegwini