A boundary question, sort of

[woolybanana]

The land on which my house stands was excavated when the house was built some 50 years ago I guess, but my neighbour's was not, leaving a bank on his side which slopes from about 2 metres tall to about a metre along the length.

On my side, a low wall was built which is roughly one metre high along its length. Over the years the neighbour's side has been partially infilled.

He wants me to build my wall higher so that he can infill and flatten his land, at least partially. Thus far I have resisted his pressure.

Something he said today however got me thinking: who is responsible for making good after the excavation of my land left him with a bank he doesnt want, and which is to be fair rather ugly? Would it have been the original owner? Can such responsibility be passed down with a change of ownership of the property?

Neither he nor I owned the property at the time that the site was excavated?

Any thoughts welcome svp.

[Quillan]

Funny enough something I was involved in last year.

The rule of thumb is that the 'border' between the two properties is at the top of the slope. The 'logic' of this is you would not excavate into another persons land only into your own. Sometimes you find that the border is halfway down the slope, the thing though is to work out exactly where the border really is of course.

First thing has a geometric at any time marked the land and left a couple of the 'toadstool' things or 'buttons' pressed into the ground as line between them will mark the border?

I seem to remember you have an IPad. Try looking for a bit of software called "Sity Trail France" (the S is not a typo). You get a seven or 14 day trial on this which is a mapping program for walkers but it does however drill down to Castral (hope that’s the word) plans. You can fire this up and literally walk around your garden and find the boundary to within half a metre (or less).

If indeed the slope does belong to you then he can't touch it although you may consider selling it to him. Make sure the area sold includes the wall that way he is responsible for it and can make it as high as he likes and fill in. He of course would also be liable for the maintenance of the wall. Could end up doing both of you a favour.

[mint]

I believe that what Q has talked about is here;  www.cadastre.gouv.fr

And those markers, as I am sure you know already, are called bornes.

They could take the form of little round "studs" in the ground and could be the very devil to locate.

Once you have found the extent of your plot from the cadastre site, then it's a matter of getting out a tape, measuring out the land and walking around the boundary to look for the bornes.  Bear in mind that they could be buried in the ground, by soil and leaves especially over decades as yours probably are, and you should find some.

We found ours in our other house fairly readily but, in our present one, a borne was buried under the pavement right beneath the communal dustbins[:(]

BTW, this is the sort of thing that should be sorted out before any attempts at selling.  It's IMHO one of the factors that could hold up a sale or even scupper one.

Good Luck, cher Wooly!

[Quillan]

Thanks Sweet 17 that is what I was talking about, spelling problem again on my behalf. With the program you get these so you can walk around with it in your hand and see where the boundary is if you can't find the 'bornes'.

[nectarine]

Quillan, excellent advice and a very logical solution. Well done.!

[woolybanana]

Thank you for your answers, guys, much appreciated. Delay in replying caused by Norman's attack on my membership, but now sorted.

The bornes are quite visible, Sweets, having been checked by the geometre from the fisc a couple of months ago; the wall is definitely on my side and is no problem.

But what has crossed my mind is that the bank behind the wall which is on my neighbour's side must have been created by someone. If it was by the owner of my property, then maybe he should not have excavated on my neighbour's land. Though, of course it could have been created by a previous owner of my neighbour's land.

My neighbour would like me to be responsible for creating the bank whenever it actually came into being and would like it infilled and flattened behind a raised wall, which I would apparently pay for ( about 3000 euros).

Naturally, I have told him that I am not interested as I will be selling this house as soon as convenient.

[Quillan]

Wooly you say the wall is on your side of the boundary but where is the boundary? The norm would be at the top of the slope because as I said you don't excavate part of another person's garden to make the slope. You start excavating from your boundary line to level off your garden . Example, imagine how you would feel if you lived on a hill and the next plot down hill from you was sold and the new person started levelling of the ground to build a house and he started excavating the slope from within your garden?

[woolybanana]

Exactly the point or the problem, Quillan; did someone in the past excavate my neighbour's land or was the excavation vertical along the boundary and turned into a slope later? neither my present negihbour nor I were owners of our properties when all this happened.

The boundary is directly behind my wall, definitely.

[idun]

I don't know whether I have understood the layout exactly, but, if your neighbour wants a wall, then they should be suggesting building

one on their land behind your wall. They will ofcourse have height

restrictions won't they, if it would go up to 2 metres high?

And once they have their land filled in

then they would really need to have a fence/wall on top of that 'extention' to

their land, because from the sound of it, there will be a big drop onto your land

other wise.

As you said, it is not in your interests to do anything at all and maybe fight them doing something too!

[woolybanana]

Yes, idun, you are right. But here is the rub; the mayor will refuse any form of wall from my neighbour as they are at daggers drawn, and if my neighbour puts on any pressure, I intend to go to the mayor and tell him that I want him to refuse the wall from me, too.

Thus do pitchforks get stuck up backsides by the commune and I can do something to my neighbour with a petard.

[Quillan]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Exactly the point or the problem, Quillan; did someone in the past excavate my neighbour's land or was the excavation vertical along the boundary and turned into a slope later? neither my present negihbour nor I were owners of our properties when all this happened. The boundary is directly behind my wall, definitely.[/quote]

If it makes no difference to you personally then sell him the wall then it is his problem even if the wall fails i.e. falls down. In fact in many ways it could be the best if you think about it logically as none of it would be your problem.

[mint]

Wools, is the boundary, as established by the cadastral plan and the bornes, exactly along the wall?

In my experience, boundary structures (fences, hedges) are usually inside the plot by about a metre.  This space is to allow for maintenance (or hedge cutting) to be doable within your own land.

So, if your wall is already within your own land, then the neighbour cannot excavate right up to your wall in any case.

[woolybanana]

Yeah, Sweets, with luck the nasty little neighbour cant do a thing, though he may try other things, judging by past behavioiur.

[mint]

Wools, I'd PM this remark if I could be sure you'd get it.

This is from OH with whom I have spoken, in a general way, about your problem.

He begs you to take photos of the wall, the interior and exterior of you house, and especially those areas with finishes such as plaster or crepi, in order to have a record of the condition of everything that could possibly be affected by the excavations of your neighbour should he go start doing any work.

You are to date the photos (OK, get the dates from the camera) print them out and file them away carefully.

Then, should there be any damage to your property from the diggings of said neighbour, you have a record of the condition pre the works.

OH has had to deal with this sort of thing innumerable times in the past.  I remember when he had to do a similar exercise on dozens of properties in the Cardiff bay area before they started developing the derelict and sorry sight into the glorious, shiny, desirable area that it is now.

Eh, he may be un vrai vieillard nowadays but he is pretty sharp and au courant where his former profession is concerned.  Why else does he insist on still paying his professional fees and reading all his dratted, boring manuals?

Bonne chance!

[woolybanana]

Thank you all, and specially to Sweets for the warning and precautions.. I hope to be long gone before my neighbour tries it on again with my successors.

In fact the disruption to his land to get to build a wall would be huge, which is why he is trying it on with me. He is well known for this kind of behaviour.

Meanwhile, back to finishing the kitchen after a few days break, then ceiling painting. May even see the garden some time!