Advice needed on selling land where farmer is using part of it???

[RuthMcG]

Basically, we bought our property of house, 2 gites and 50 hectares 3 years ago. The previous owner had a "simple" bail between himself and the farmer for 9 years which runs to 21 July 2007. At the time that we bought both the farmer and owner told us that there was no problem if we wanted the land back for ourselves, the farmer would vacate. We allowed the farmer to continue his run of the bail as we had no need of the 15 hectares that he uses, while all the time being told by the farmer that he would leave at any time if we gave him notice of one season.
 
We are now in the position that we want to sell the property to release some equity for my husband's business here (we are residents here full-time). The farmer has indicated that the bail that he had with the previous owner will automatically roll over in July and there's not much we can do about it. We can't take back the land for ouselves as we are not registered 'agricultuer's.
 
He mentioned that if we want to buy him out of the bail then it could cost as much as 54,000 euros as there may be some indemnitities! (what does that mean?) He has since said that if we are fair with him he will be fair with us which we take to mean that he may well demand some sort of payment to make him leave.
 
Before we officially approach the farmer I would like to know if it is true that after deciding to put the property on the market we must send a recommended letter to him, telling of our intention to sell, giving details of the total price asked for the whole property and offering him first-call to buy. From the date of the letter he then has 6 months in which to make an offer or send us a letter saying that he has no wish to purchase the land etc. If he decides not to buy himself then is it also true that this letter is official notice of the termination of his renting the land. (I heard this from someone who is currently studying to be an agriculteur here.) If he decides not to buy but wants to remain on the property is there anything I can do?
 
I also heard from one of the estate agents who we have just registered with that we can at any time give sufficient notice (1 year) to the farmer to vacate the land as we have every right to exploit the land ourselves without having to do the diploma course.
 
We want to have a meeting with the farmer ourselves to discuss the sale (we have only just registered with a few agents so very early days yet) and to see if there is a problem or not. We may well be jumping the gun a little, however I would like to be armed with what are our rights as owners (if any!) and also information on who has claim to do what in relation to the sale. I do understand that SAFER also has a claim but that is a seperate issue.
 
I would really appreciate any advice or pointers as to where I can find out the true answers as everyone I have talked to so far has a different opinion and standpoint.
 

Thanks in advance to anyone who can advise!

[RuthMcG]

Sorry - should have said we are in the Aude.

Ruth

[Teamedup]

I don't think it matters where you live. It has been mentioned enough on here, buyer beware where agricultural land is concerned and farmer's have rights.

You need to see a notaire and you need to see the people who deal with agricultural matters, your Mairie should know or get in touch with the Ministre de l'Agriculture they'll tell you who to contact.

You certainly have enough land to have been registered as a small holding haven't you, if that is the way you have to play this.

 

[LanguedocGal2]

[quote user="RuthMcG"] The previous owner had a "simple" bail between himself and the farmer for 9 years which runs to 21 July 2007. At the time that we bought both the farmer and owner told us that there was no problem if we wanted the land back for ourselves, the farmer would vacate. We allowed the farmer to continue his run of the bail as we had no need of the 15 hectares that he uses, while all the time being told by the farmer that he would leave at any time if we gave him notice of one season.
 
[/quote]

Ruth, the following is perhaps the point of view of an embittered person, but if it helps you to avoid the same, I’d be happy.  First thing is, listen to TU and get yourself t to a Notaire straight away.

What does this ‘simple bail’ really contain? Your rights as owners should also be stated in it as well as the way to proceed. If it doesn't contain all the proper elements of a bail, it may not even be valid but that would be too optimistic.

I had a tenant who would not leave – not land but a flat - so I sympathise. The rules are obviously different for agricultural land, however, you have to lean on the contents of the original bail and the previous owner would not have left himself unprotected. My tenant from hell also tried to con some ‘’dedommagement’’ out of me.  Your farmer is doing the same and hoping that you are some daft rich foreigner, irrespective of the actual state of your bank account. 

RE NOTICE: ‘’CONGE - REPRISE POUR VENDRE’’ 

The minimium notice period should be on the bail and even if it says that you can issue it yourself, I would strongly recommend that you go through a ‘Huissiers de Justice’’.  They are the ones that usually issue such notices but your Notaire will explain this to you. My Huissier charged me around 135 € in  February 2004 to issue the notice.

In any case, you ‘MUST’ issue this notice within the correct period or you may lose your right to get it back for another 9 years as the farmer is suggesting. If the farmer has already asked for that amount, he is really out to stitch you up so I would not use the softly softly approach because this is your land. He is not an innocent peasant but a greedy sod trying to well and truly shaft you.  He told you he would leave with a season's notice whilst fully aware of his rights. Don’t count on his goodwill. There is a lot of land in the Aude, he can rent somewhere else.

Sorry to come across so harsh but you do not want to go through what I and many owners with tenants on long leases go through. I did everything by the book, language was not a problem but in France, laws are one thing, their application is another altogether. For property too, the owners have little support from the law.

Notaire; you may laugh at this but if you live in close knit community in the Aude, I suggest you leave your commune and get a Notaire who does not know the farmer or his family.  This is not a joke, as you need someone on your side.

Also, I would not listen to the Estate Agents but see your Notaire before you consult anyone else.  The Farmer may have a ‘droit de preemption’ (the first option to buy the land) and this should also be contained on the bail. This is what your friend is talking about and it exists also in long term tenancy agreements for properties.

Hate to say this but he could also use this period (3,6, 12 months - whatever) to delay the sale by saying he will buy it, wait for the final moment to say that he did not get the funding etc. This latter did not happen to me but when consulting the Owner's Association in Montpellier, I learnt a lot.

Sincerely, hope you can reclaim your land but I think that if the bail ends in 2007, you are leaving it a little late for the issuing of the 'conge'.  If you are late by one day, the bail is automatically extended 'reconduit tacitement'. You should have never listened to the farmer's assertions that one season's notice was enough because you can now see the result.  Please do not waste anymore time but take the 'bail' to a Notaire immediately.

Re the notice, your bail may contain something like: (my highlights).

''Le conge doit etre notifie par lettre recommandee avec demande d'avis de reception ou signifie par acte d'huissier. Ce delai court a compter du jour de la reception de la lettre recommandee ou de la signification de l'acte d'huissier'' (sorry no accents). 

Hope all goes well but PM me if you have any problems with terms.

LG2

 

[chris pp]

Unless you are in a position to legally and officially use the land for something which is acceptable to the Min of Agriculture and SAFER, I think that you are on a loser if the farmer stands firm.

The reason that they require compensation is very simple, as it stands they receive a prime (subsidy) for the land that they use, this they would loose and it's well worth keeping, it sure adds up over the years.

Notaires advice is definitely required.

Chris

[LanguedocGal2]

[quote user="chris pp"]

Unless you are in a position to legally and officially use the land for something which is acceptable to the Min of Agriculture and SAFER, I think that you are on a loser if the farmer stands firm.

Chris

[/quote]

Unless the farmer has reached the age of 60. (Ageism, I know[:(])

Ruth, how old is your farmer?  Is he anywhere near 60? I'm sure I read in my wanderings a few years back that retirement age was a factor enabling owners to reclaim agricultural land. Check this out too, in case it's still valid and he is or approaching this age.

However, I bow to Chris pp's knowledge of SAFER rules. It was never part of my concern back then but the Notaire can fill you in.

 

[chris pp]

The reality normally is, that once a farmer is on your land and either they or their children wish to continue using it, you are stuck either with them or justifying how you would use it for some form of "agricultural" purpose, this could be farming it yourself, growing fruit trees commercially or something similar, even honey or truffle production, but you would have to show that it was a commercial venture and register as such.

It's a tricky one, but I'm fairly sure that if your only purpose is to increase the sale value you are in for a battle.

Chris

[BIG MAC]

Warning bells are ringing here.

When we bought our house a local peasant lady rented an outbuilding and a shed from the previous owners.

The outbuilding (A Byre) we asked her to vacate however let her continue to use the shed in which she keeps a few sheep.

In front of the shed she has erected a rudimentary fence to create a walkway for the sheep into a field which she rents from A. N. Other.

We have no problem with the sheep grazing our land when we are not there and take the view that as no money is changing hands we are helping a neighbour out and probably benefit as she keeps an eye on the house.

Do we need to excercise rights over the land to keep them ie maintin the fence on the far side of the pathway to show our boundaries as including it?

Would hate to think our neighbour would turn us over particularly as I was going to flatten the shed she uses and build her a new one nearer the field, when she goes we may run some sheep ourselves.

[RuthMcG]

Hi All

 

Just thought I'd update you on our situation with our tenant farmer. Legaly, we are not in any position to terminate his bail no matter how simple (and it is) as the bail automatically rolls over for another 9 years. The only way we can finish the bail is to pay him an extortionate amount or go back to agricultural college and become authenticated farmers of some sort or other ourselves. We then have the right to take back the land giving him 18 months notice but ONLY 18 months before the new bail runs out in 2014 and only if we are going to exploit the land ourlseves.

However! We have had a very informal meeting with our farmer who quite understands the predicament we are in and has agreed that we negotiate and remain amicable throughout. He says he does not want us to suffer financially for this situation. Therefore it has been agreed between us that the bail runs as is for another 9 years, he will negotiate with us and any potential buyers and is willing to reduce the amount of land he has in the bail to a certain level (in order to keep his EU grant in place) and also he is willing to terminate the bail with the new owners if they give him 18months notice within 3 months of purchase. If they don't then the bail runs the entire 9 years.

All in all, we 3 were quite happy with the result of this meeting and think it is quite fair to all who are or maybe involved. The farmer has always been pretty straight with us so we see no reason why this won't work. He has also agreed to sign this in writing, which of course we will draw up and do immediately.

Ruth