Kiera Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 'Walking the Somme' by Paul Reed is a good perspective on the Somme battlefields (but I'm biased) but I always have a copy of Rose Coomb's book Before Endeavours Fade: Guide to the Battlefields of the First World War, which I think has recently been updated.Kiera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcazar Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 Yes, I have that one too. Did you know that Rose Coombs only died recently, and chose the title of her book, "Before Endeavours Fade" to have the same initials as the British Expeditionary Force" that fought at Mons?Apparently, "The First day of the Somme" by Martin Middlebrook, is also reckoned to be good. I haven't read it yet, it's always out at our library[:(]Anyone else visted "High Wood", in the "horseshoe of woods"? Very moving. Could have been taken on the first day fo the battle. Troops who investigated it found the Germans had all gone, and asked permission, but were told to withdraw, and take it the next day.The Germans came back in the night, and it took a further 12 weeks and 13,000 dead to take it.Lions led by Donkeys............Alcazar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 "Lions led by Donkeys"Not at all, as anything other than a superficial study of the events shows. The commanders were not divorced from their men. Remember that the army of the Somme was not professional, and did not have the understanding and sometimes the initiative of regulars. It is all rather too complex to be reduced to soundbites produced by dodgy historians (and politicians).May I publicise a book by a friend of mine? Have a look at 'The Somme: A Day by Day Account' by Chris McCarthy of the Imperial War Museum. It gives a real insight into the complexity of the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loiseau Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 [quote user="Kiera"] 'Walking the Somme' by Paul Reed ... Rose Coomb's book Before Endeavours Fade... [/quote] Yes, got both those, Kiera. Excellent! [;-)]Angela EDITPS Just realised that I have acquired a second blue pip! I thought I would have to wait for a more round figure of posts - like 500. [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiera Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 'Rose Coombs only died recently,'Alcazar, Rose died back in 1991, but her book has just been updated. When Rose died her ashes were buried in Lille Gate Cemetery and the path leading up to the cemetery was named after her.I was up at High Wood and London Cemetery on Monday, it looks as if they are clearing part of the wood again, didn't have time to go and ask what was going on, but I hope it's not yet another area of the battlefield being built on. Having said that it looks like the the proposed development of the glory hole at La Boiselle has been stopped for the time being. Nice to see that you have Walking the Somme, Angela, Paul's next book in the Battleground editions, 'Walking Arras' is due out at Christmas. Kiera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missy Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 [quote user="Cassis"]Just a quickie. Today is the 90th anniversary of the start of the Battle of the Somme. Spare a thought for those who died, if you can. If you're ever passing through ....[/quote] ... passing through London.... I happened to be in London on the 1st of July and was cooling down in the shade in Hyde Park when I came accross a lovely memorial dedicated to all the animals used in conflicts all over the ages and the world. The most poignant thing of the memorial are these simple words : They had no choice.It is a nice memorial made of bronze life size statues of a horse, a mule and donkeys ladden with war paraphernalia, walking through a breach in a wall. It is situated just inside Hyde Park almost at Speaker's Corner on the Park Lane side of the Park.Unsung heroes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missy Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 [quote user="Alcazar"]A very interesting visit is to a GERMAN first world war cemetery. There is one near Arras containing the BODIES of 70.000 men, not just names.........It's very saddening to see how dark, and triste the German cemeteries are, with 4 or 5 names on each marker. [/quote]About 10 years ago, I took my kids to the Normandy D-Day landing area for history projects they had to produce in school. My parents joined us on the trip, they were both about the same age as their grandchildren were that day, growing up in French occupied France. We visited the German cemetery at Maisy in Normandy. It was quite early in the day so perhaps made up for the fact that there was no one else wandering around but us. Lovely morning dappled sunlight which in itself was beautiful. The black crosses lay flat on the ground with 2 names each. Some of these soldiers were barely 16! Then we went on to the big American one... and as nice as it is overlooking the sea, we quickly departed for the sheer number of tourists and kids running, screaming, swilling their everlasting can of coke, with no appreciation of why they were there and why these fields of crosses are here at all!... My father had a lump for the bereaved for the surreal brashness of the situation...We went on to the English cemetery near Caen where visitors were more restrained and behaviour more fitting of the surroundings! My son (then 13) thought the German cemetery was the best bit of his trip for the moving experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcazar Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Keira: 1991 IS recent[:)] I'd assumed, on reading her book that she was an old lady by the end of WW2, don't know why.Anyway, point taken. Interesting about where her ashes are, and the naming of the path, though. Thanks for that.Alcazar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiera Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Alcazar, sorry my tone was a bit off! Still suffering from lack of sleep over the 1st July weekend! Rose's death seems a long time ago to me! She died when my son was nearly a year old, and he's now 16... Did you know that most of Rose's papers remained in Ypres too? They are in the documentation centre of In Flanders Fields museum. The Rose Coombs collections contains trench maps, photographs, newspapers and periodicals and original documents.Alcazar, have you read 'The Hell They Called High Wood' by Terry Norman, I still think is one of the best books on this battle. Kiera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcazar Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Yes, I've read it. I've read most of the stuff about the Somme that was around when the 80th anniversary fell, as I was off work for some time, and that's why I happened to see the ceremony on July 1st at 0730 on TV.It moved me to go to the local library, and after a while I even got them to order in books they didn't have altready. They DIDN'T have a copy of "Before Endeavours Fade", but they do now![;-)]I wonder if the work being done at "High Wood" is anything to do with the final removal of ammunition? I'd read somewhere that the site was just left after the war, and it grew up again around no end of stuff. Could be a modern myth though? Could also be a ploy for privacy of the family who own it now!I remember taking my kids to the Lochnagar crater, and them wanting to go down into it. I was agreeable, since a photo would then have them on for scale.My eldest, then about 12, announced that he would find a "bullet" while he was down there. I pointed out that it was a very touristy place, and 80 years on, etc etc, so don't be too sure you'll find anything.Lo and behold, he came back with a .303 cartridge case! The pair of them now have loads of souvenirs.Alcazar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiera Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I hope there is nothing sinister about the work going on in the wood, but with so much building here at the moment the first thing that springs to mind is development. The wood is owned by two seperate people, and this is the side that has until now remained untouched.It is unlikely that they are doing battlefield clearance as this is generally an unending task, and the bomb squad only come to take away gas shells normally (after a long wait!) I know in my garden that each time I redig the veggie patch new stuff comes to the surface, and my metal detector is useless due to the amount of shrapnel and shards in the soil- there again we did at one time have a German line and a Canadian frontline running through the garden. There was very little clearance after the war, many munitions etc on the surface were removed, but most of the woods were left - Delville was vaguely cleared of surface munitions, but tons of the stuff surfaces every year.Kiera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Sam Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 AlcazarI don't want to sound a killjoy but the removal of ANYTHING from battlefield sites is not only an offence, but can also be extremely dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiera Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Too true Sam, anything dug up is property of the French Government, and they do seem to be enforcing this now, even possesion of a .303 round could be seen as an offence. I for one know too many people on the Somme or Ypres with missing fingers at the best or who have blown themselves up in recent years. I don't look forward to digging in my garden and anything found is treated with the utmost respect and care, the outside may be rusty, but in most devices the inside workings are as good as they were 90 years ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I was stopped and the car searched after a trip to Ypres a while back. Didn't look under the seats...I wouldn't be happy with someone who didn't know what they were doing picking up battlefield detritus, though. There are still lots of nasty bang-bangs in the ground, as well as large amounts of small arms ammo. Shrapnel balls etc. are safe enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted July 6, 2006 Author Share Posted July 6, 2006 I dug up a small German anti-tank shell of 2nd WW origin the other day. The Gendarmes came and checked what it was then called the centre déminagement at Caen. Bloke came in a van that evening and bunged it in the back and drove off. Said if I found any more during the course of work, just pile them up and call him when I was finished.[IMG]http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i26/cassiscassis/PICT0080.jpg[/IMG]There was quite fierce German resistance round here as Leclerc's 2nd DB drove towards Alençon because the Germans had dug in to defend ammunition dumps in the forest of Perseigne. You can still see strange holes in the forest floor where German tanks were hidden and covered with camouflage netting. There was also a resistance cell ammo dump buried under the vegetable patch at the bottom of our garden. The entrance was covered by an earth covered lid on which they grew cabbages etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcazar Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 They only have shrapnel balls, empty cartridge cases, fired bullets, the ends of a webbing belt, the bottom of a small shell case, minus the firing cap, etc. Some were given to them by a gardener at a WW1 cemetery we visited, north-west of Lille, after it had been vandalised by French schoolchildren.You can buy similar stuff on many markets in the UK. No way would I sanction DIGGING for stuff: let the farmers turn it up, and have a look on the edge of fields after the plough, or harrow has been over it. A French friend has a complete German rifle he found near his home, near Lille, just lying on top of a field. No wood left, mind, but otherwise complete, just a bit bent.He's also a memeber of a society that does archeological digs from crashed WW2 aircraft, keeps sending me photos of a "bit" and I'm supposed to say what I think it is.Shells and stuff? forget it.Alcazar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassis Posted July 6, 2006 Author Share Posted July 6, 2006 So you don't want me to put aside for you any more that I turn up while digging?[:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcazar Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 [quote user="Cassis"]So you don't want me to put aside for you any more that I turn up while digging?[:)][/quote]Yes please.......you save them, I'll collect them on February 30th next year[:D]Alcazar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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