Where to start a B&B

[stephane]

Hello,

Is there stil any place left in France to start a B&B. Or are there at this moment to much of them?

If there is any place left, in wich region can you find something suitable to start a B&B with 3 rooms for me to run the place and my wife working as a physical therapist.

Thanks for al your answers.

Stephane

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Stephane,

This is an almost impossibly difficult question to answer. I believe that there's always room for competition. If your place is better and your prices competitive, then as long as you go in the right guides, you'll succeed in carving a niche for yourself. 

But you need to be prepared to work harder then your competitors, and probably have something really special if you're seeking to open up in an area where there's a lot of competition. But I don't think that there's anywhere in France that's truly saturated.

You would need a place where your wife can get a job (so not too for from a fair sized town). It's got to be a place that's either got an excellent long tourist season, or one where it's developing. I would suggest that you should also look to an area where there is good road and/or rail access from major conurbations which are about 5-6 hours away. You may well then get people who have left home, driven for as much as they feel like and are then looking to overnight. Once they've come once there's a possibility they will want to discover your area on another visit.

Lastly it would be perfect if the area you chose had decent stocks of reasonably low priced housing.

Does such a perfect place exist? I don't know. I might be tempted to look near Cahors in the Lot. There will soon be an international airport off the A20 just south of Brive, so you would be within 3/4 of an hour of there. Rodez is reasonably reachable with cheap flight from the UK. The A20 is free from Vierzon to Brive, therefore almost all the way from Paris and the distance is right. You'd be under 3 hours from Toulouse, and about the same from Bordeaux. Lyon would be 5 hours. There's a lot of tourism in the Summer, and quite a lot in mid season. There would certainly be the possibility of developing a specialised business with Cahors wine estates.

Best of luck.

[stephane]

Dear Ian,

Thank you for the the answer who will guide me through my quest.

The main problem for us will be to find a job for my wife, otherwise I think it isn't a good adventure to start.

But otherwise we will go further with your information with a budget of 300.000 euro's

Stephane

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi again Stéphane,

you said:-

Thank you for the the answer who will guide me through my quest.

I hope it's some use. However, you need to be aware that running a B&B - especially if you're counting on it for serious amounts of money, is very hard work.

The main problem for us will be to find a job for my wife, otherwise I think it isn't a good adventure to start.

I quite agree. You said in English that she's a physical therapist. Is this your translation of Kinésitherapeute? If is, I'd have expected that there's always plenty of work for one. Certainly there is around here! Would she be intending to set up as a self employed person, or is she looking to be an employee? It might make a difference as to where you should look. I could imagine that trying to run a Kiné and Chambre d'Hôte in the same house might be tricky. You'd need to ask the local office of GdF, as they may not like the idea. Equally, I'd have thought that your needs would be pushing in opposite directions. A self employed Kiné would need to have their treatment room convenient to enough people to make their business viable, while GdF won't approve a CdH in a town of more than about 1500 people.

But otherwise we will go further with your information with a budget of 300.000 euro's

That's a pretty generous amount of money, though you would have to think about whether you would need to invest part of it to supplement your wife's income while your income from CdH builds up. Our income was pretty low in the first full year of being open, but then increased by 33% after one year, and a further 25% the next. After a little glitch, it continued to rise by 20% a year for a further two years. So after 5 years it had gone up to three times the first year. Subsequent changes have been relatively minor.

Best of luck.

[stephane]

Dear Ian,

Yes my wife wants to get a job as a Kinesitherapeute. But not in a private practice. More in a hospital or a revalidation setting. So I can concentrate myself on the B&B business. Do you think there are plenty jobs in France?

The budget is 200.000 for buying and 100.000 for renovating. Is that resonable?

Thanks.

Steven

[mascamps.com]

100k is a LOT of renovating money. If you get a place that needs that much renovating, you won't be able to use it as a CdH 'til the work is complete (perhaps a year or more). I would have thought that you'd not be able to live in a place needing that much renovation initially either.

My own preference is to get somewhere that you can run from the start ie with very little, if any, renovation. What is perhaps ideal is somewhere that is useable right away but with some buildings that could be renovated. That way you have somewhere to put your initial guests and can extend your accommodation over the next few years as the number of guests builds up. More importantly, you have an income stream which can be used to finance the renovations.

 

Arnold

 

[Cerise]

Dear Steven

Hi I'm not Ian but I will reply anyway.  I think you should be able to buy and maybe renovate for that money - but don't forget to allow yourselves some money to live on.  If you want a swimming pool it may eat a large chunk of that renovation money.  Your budget is not unsimilar to ours 3 years ago - but I would say that we have virtually nothing left and the money is slow in coming in.  Whatever you do, don't borrow for the project as that way disaster lies. 

If your wife wishes to set up her own practice does she, and for that matter you, speak French.  If not it would severely limit her clientele and she would need to be near a large concentration of English speakers.  If you are planning to run the chambre d'hotes alone be sure that you are prepared for sheer amounts of housework, washing ironing etc.  Maybe you are super househusband, but I know that my other half was shocked by the amount he has to do and there are 2 of us.

As to area, I think Ian's suggestion is a good one - providing you are happy with area for yourselves.  If you have not already done so think you should visit a few areas before committing yourself.

Good luck

Maggi

Forgot to say that we only spent about 100,000 euros on house purchase and about the same on renovations and kitting out house.  But we still have bits of work to do - looks OK to the guests but we know there are things to do.

 

[stephane]

Thanks guys for all the info.

As I am a Belgium, French isn't a problem. For my wife she now taking courses to take up her french.

So it's better to spent more money on a house that's seems to be ok for B&B, and spent money on a pool en little reovation work. In what kind of prices should I think for buying and renovating?

Steven

[mascamps.com]

It I were you I would definitely spend a bit more on the property to get one that didn't need renovated. It's OK to get a property that you can improve on (indeed that will get you one at a lower price) but renovation is a whole different matter.

A pool isn't necessarily an advantage in your first year. They are about 10.000€ to 20.000€ for a good sized one but in your first year nobody will know that you have built it as you need to advertise that you have one ie your second year clients will know about it therefore build it after the first summer.

Keep some "emergency" money back too. There are no end of unexpected bills that you will get whether it be needing to get a new cooker (at least 500€) through to needing a new car.

 

Arnold

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Stéphane,

I was pretty sure you were french speaking from your accent!! If your wife wants to work as a Kiné, then as Cerise (?) said, she too will need to be able to speak fairly good French. Be sure to check up that her qualifications will be accepted here.

As for what kind of place to buy, there's some good sense in what Arnold says, though not (in my opinion) for the reasons he gave. Prices of property in need of some restoration (as opposed to ruins) are not THAT much lower then the prices of places that you can move into. However, Arnold bought an hotel, and that's a completely different animal from a B&B.

If you DO manage to find a place in which all the conversion to a B&B has been done, then by all means go for it, if the price is right, however, it would have had to have been converted for that purpose. It's no good thinking that you can run a B&B in an old hotel, for dozens of good reasons.

I would question whether a swimming pool is a good thing to have in a B&B. At least in the sort of image I have of a B&B anyway. It all depends upon who you want and what you expect your guests to do. Personally I don't want my guests trailing around the place during the day. I want to be left alone to look after the house, the washing and drying, the shopping and cooking and all the rest.

If you have a swimming pool you're going to attract more families with kids (whose noise around a swimming pool has to be heard to be believed, and who may irritate the neighbours), and you will encourage them to be hanging around all day. They'll then want to picnic in the place at lunch. I have quite a few friends who have had to declare their swimming pools out of bounds, because of the noixe, mess and nuisance value. To say nothing of the new regulations.

In my part of the world, luxurious 4 épis B&Bs are relatively rare, and prices there are pretty high. However, the demands made are also pretty high, and a number of people I've known who were running them have stopped, because they simply couldn't bear the life.

Remember that to be able to be part of the largest grouping of B&Bs in France, Gites de France, (which I most heartily recommend, as it is the sign of a properly inspected and professionally run place) you cannot be in a town of more than 1500 people. They don't like properties beside a main road, and regard 5 rooms as about the largest number. To get 3 or 4 épis (essential) you must have private salles d'eaux in every bedroom. They don't much like a cabinet de douche anymore. There's some talk of having separate WCs and shower/bath rooms, though I personally think that's going too far.

You get many more clients if you offer dinner, though it's a great deal of work for very little profit. I VERY strongly recommend that your guests can have their own entrance. Then you won't have them coming back at all hours of the night and tripping over you as you go to bed, or while you're sitting peacefully. You might also like to set aside a room where they can take breakfast, and perhaps sit in in the evenings. If your own rooms are used for that, you will find the lack of privacy to be very oppressive.

Honestly, I think you would stand a better chance of finding a large private house in fair condition which you can convert, than ready to be used. But you should certainly TRY to find one that's ready. Arnold is right that a house that's ready would start bringing in money more quickly, but against that, I feel it's better to create something that's exactly right, rather than muddle along with something approximate.

As for employment for your wife. I'm afraid I've no idea at all. You should visit the area, decide if you like it, and if you do, ask around about work. But your first decision ought to be to find an area which suits you.

Hope that helps

[stephane]

Dear Ian,

Thanks for the great reply. Especially regearding the topic of the swimmingpool. We don't want that he guests hang arround all day. But I think that a swimmingpool gives you that extra what attracts more guests. So that could be a big point of discussion.

Steven

[mascamps.com]

I think my ideal would be a place that had 1 or 2 rooms ready to go (ie ensuite etc.) with another 3 or 4 that could be converted to B&B use over the next year or two. That way you (hopefully) get somewhere that little bit cheaper, you get some income from the start, get a feel for the business and you are able to expand your capacity as the number of guests builds up.

We're in two minds about a pool ourselves for the reasons that Ian mentioned. Having the guests around all day would change considerably the way the place felt to us - at the moment it's essentially private for most of the day. Aside from anything else, having them around all day extends the length of the working day which isn't something to do without a lot of thought.

The other big reservation I'd have about a pool is that it strips out getting on for 20.000€ at a time when you need all the money you can scrape together. We reckon that money is better spent on the property and advertising in the first year or two.

Don't forget that there's a wide variation of prices for quite similar properties. When we were looking around, we saw a lot of almost identical properties to this one for getting on for 50% more money. The one thing to watch is that the "bargains" go very, very quickly ie there is little time to think about it. In our own case, this place never even made it into brochures or onto the internet and was only on sale for about two weeks.

 

Arnold

 

[Coco]

I'm with Arnold on this one.  Places ALWAYS cost so much more to renovate than you imagine.  By all means get something that needs work doing to it but if you can find a place (like we did) that has had a lot of the bigger jobs done it saves a lot of time and money.  And apart from anything else, these partly renovated places can go for a bargain price, purely because they aren't finished.  As long, of course, as the work hasn't been bodged.  Our house had got a new roof, new windows, all the tiling done downstairs and the rewiring had almost been finished when we went to look.  It was a Parisian's holiday home but he had just been transferred with his job to Marseilles and knew that there was no point in keeping a house in Normandy as his weekend retreat!! 

We were lucky in that we bought our house 6 years ago as a holiday home, knowing that we wanted to come out here to run a B&B within the next 3 to 5 years, so time was on our side.  We were able to do a lot of renovation work over the 2 years that it was a holiday home, including upgrading one bathroom and putting in a second.  We didn't get the third bedroom in until we were here permanently but managed that in time for our first summer season as a B&B with two rooms.  This year we will have a third room available for rental from mid-June onwards and from the start of the 2006 season we will have another room available.  The important thing is that we had two rooms available from day one, so the savings weren't used up as quickly as they would otherwise have been and hopefully in 2006 we won't have to touch them at all!!!

Good luck but take your time on choosing the right area not only for the B&B but for you to feel happy living in.

[Bobc]

 "100k is a LOT of renovating money. If you get a place that needs that much renovating, you won't be able to use it as a CdH 'til the work is complete (perhaps a year or more). I would have thought that you'd not be able to live in a place needing that much renovation initially either.

My own preference is to get somewhere that you can run from the start ie with very little, if any, renovation. What is perhaps ideal is somewhere that is useable right away but with some buildings that could be renovated. That way you have somewhere to put your initial guests and can extend your accommodation over the next few years as the number of guests builds up. More importantly, you have an income stream which can be used to finance the renovations."

Partially good advice but probably unrealistic regarding purchase price and renovation costs.

In our area of France which is a very popular area, you would be very hard pushed to find a suitable property for B&B within 200K Euros. 100,000 Euros for restoration would go nowhere if you are employing professional artisans. In our area there is an 8 bedroom townhouse with garden and in an ideal area for B&B. This is on the market for 250,000 Euros and would probably require another 150,000 Euros to bring it up to a good standard with en-suite bathrooms, etc.

If you are going to look at outbuildings to renovate then forget your budgets - the costs will run away from you.

Regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux