NF P90 307A & 308

[winedrinker]

Does anybody have an English translation of the AFNOR regulations that came into force on Jan 1st. Namely NF 90 307A and 308.

I am particularly interested in the distance of a pool to a house and the size of the pool and the number of alarms required. Also whether our old (5 years and so not in need of replacement) can be made to conform to 308.

To be brutally honest I am searching for a cheap way to comply with what every body I speak to (installers, pool shops and other pool owners) regard is an ill thought out and knee jerk law.) I have a pond 10 metres from my pool - no security required. There is a farmers resevoir in the village - no security required. I do not have small children visitors. Interestingly Canada had such a law that  was recently rescinded as they discovered that they were having more accidents because the security systems imbued an over confidence in parents who left kids and felt they could rely on the security system.

[vervialle]

I think poolguy posted them on here last year, it maybe worth looking back, I am sure he wouldnt mind if you sent him a pm.I know how you feel,I have just bought a cover that complys 4200 euros.If you have an above ground pool, I dont think you have to have one, its crazy and look at all the redundant wells in France, I have one.Its been discussed many times on here,but my thinking is that pool owners take safety very seriously and you are naturally vigilant at all times.Just having a safety cover does not relieve you of that responsibilty. It will be interesting to see if drowning incidents numbers fall.I think with all these plastic above ground pools being sold so cheaply, I think the numbers may well go up because although you cannot fall into them they still need to be monitored all the time.

[Jonzjob]

The official attitude to the ruling on pools appears to be that pools are 'leasure activity areas' where as ponds, rivers, wells, etc. are not? Therefore they don't need any safety features????? Ask Quillan, he is in the situation where he has a B&B with the River Aude running down both sides of his garden and it doesn't have to be protected from nasty little children who want to jump in. Just imagine the situation if they did decide to fence off rivers. Hummmm thinks... I may just go into the fence selling buisness [6], then there's the lakes, lots of them and don't forget the coast. Wow, what a job!? [8-)]

Nothing will replace proper supervision and nothing will replace human failings, even if only for a fraction of a second. The only way is to be very careful, teach young children to swim and look after them.

Unfortunately I think that you will find that it is NOT possible to get your 5 year old alarm to comply if it didn't already come with the certification. A 'for instance'. The gates in the lovely (?) fencing have to be tried to see if they fail in any way 40.000 times before they pass. The alarms have to go through the same sort of cyclic testing and before the rules came in I can't see any alarm maker doing it. Crikey, I bet the bloke, sorry, person opening and closing the gate got a sore arm. What if he lost count, sod it, start again?

Serious again, the only way to stop youngsters drowning is to supervise them. Not stop their fun, but make sure they are safe.

John.

[winedrinker]

Sorry. I should have made it clear. It is our winter cover that is 5 years old and that is why I want to find out if it is acceptable.

I realise I will have to buy an alarm. But one or two ( pool 15 x 6 m) and do I need a repeater in the house?

 

 

[Jonzjob]

I would hang fire if I were you. There is supposed to be a new ruling out at the beginning of this month and the thought is that it may well drop alarms from the list of approved safety guuards?

The cover will not meet the standards for the reasons I stated above. It has to come from the makers with the certificate. I'm pretty sure it can not be back dated. I think that Pool Guy will back me on that. There are new covers from the States that exceed the requirements, but they are not stamped with the conformatity so do NOT conform! That is the bottom line.

The conformatity may be stupid, BUT IT IS THE LAW! There are a boat load of companies out there making a packet out of it and will continue to do so with the governments consent of the conformity. Our cover has crap plastic clips that are going to slice someones shoulder when they are in the pool, but they are part of the conformity. Who gets sued when someone does do themselves an injury, watch this space?

John.

[Poolguy]

John is completly correct.

A five year old cover or any cover for that matter which does not show

the conformity will not be accetable as complaint security.

Alarms are under the spot light, and rumer has it that they will not survive.

I have just heard from my unofficial source that the Committee

which met last month to decide on the fate of alarms have decide to defer a

decision until after they have met again which they will do on the 15th of this

month pending a decision (perhaps this time) on the 28th of this month.

One cynic commented that they didn’t get enough

information/gratuities/liaison with interest groups so they are holding out for

more. But I am sure that that sort of thing doesn't go on in France.

Needless to say, that they had better get this right otherwise

there will be hell to pay. I have no doubt that there will be feathers ruffled

which ever way the guillotine falls. However I would be very surprised if this

law was repealed in France. Its just not the sort of thing which brings French people

out on the streets and forced back downs by Governments (witness -the Youth

contract)

I'll get back to you all when I know more.

But interestingly, a number of our customers living in 46,

24 and 31 have reported being visited by the Gendarmes to check for compliance.

What is even more Interesting, was that one gendarme replied that 'only

compliant Fences are acceptable'. He obviously has not read his briefing notes.

SO now it begins.

 Andrew

[winedrinker]

Let me get this correct. Are you and John saying that 307A may be scrapped totally and all alarms sold to date that comply  (and with TVA going to the government) will no longer be valid pool security equipment?

Terry

 

[Poolguy]

A Committee of Government meets in a week to

determine just that.

The Alarm MAY be scrapped from the list of conforming devices following a spate

of drownings where alarms where fitted.

It seems that some individuals are purchasing alarms as the 'least cost option'

when they are inappropriate choice of security.

So notwithstanding the back lash which will inevitably result from pool owners

who have purchased Alarms the motive of this Committee I believe ifs to make

the law more robust and effective in saving lives, or at least more enforceable.

As a Pool professional, it is a very welcome change, as I cannot in all good conscience

recommend Alarms for the majority of cases as they are largely ineffective and

serve only to announce that a drowning is in progress for anyone within earshot

but will do nothing to stop it. Where there is no one, then there is no chance

of rescue so then they can never be thought of as a security measure.

Andrew

[winedrinker]

Andrew,

 

I am sorry but I disagree totally. It was a knee jerk political reaction to the unfortunate death of an ex Prime Ministers' grandchild. If they were serious about this they would zero rate the appliances for TVA. They would require all ponds and farmers resevoirs to be fitted with security systems.

 

I find the whole thing an example of Nany State. However that being said I have installed a device that complies at minimum cost.

 

Interestingly the following is a quote from a HUGE alarm manufacturer to my query about the "committee" and rumoured plans to not allow alarms.

 

We have heard the same rumor for 2 years. But we are members of the national committee for pool safety and we have never heard of this kind of proposal.

This explanation is simple : about 80% of the pool safety systems are alarms…

 

 

Terry

[ramar]

my Aquasensor Mk 1 has just failed for the 3rd time and is now out of G/tee, so I am faced with a replacement because I do not think a repair is an option.

My question is is Afnor NF90-307 CE the same as NF P90-307/A1?

If the regulations are changed and Alarms are not an option will all owners know this?

How long before we know what the new regulations are.?

Help

 

[Poolguy]

Alarms are still accepted as compliant devices.

Although it is clear to most that they should not be.

Changing you choice of security is the most effective path to take I suspect;

 

Andrew

[ramar]

Hi Andrew

 

telephone no. has been sent after 2 attempts to get it correct.

 

I have had trouble with internet connections not able to get broadband in the forseeable.

 

I am still confused with the AFNOR numbers used by some alarm manufacturers and it is difficult to be sure whether they are all compliant, if I go that route again.

What is failure rate for infra-red perimeter alarms, are they more reliable?  because they would give a slight time advantage over in pool alarms.

 

What is the best inexpensive pool testing kit.?